Hard Truths About Predicting Behavior with Retired FBI Special Agent Robin Dreeke
In this interview, we dug really deep into some of the stories from Robin’s past included in his new book. Everything from being in New York City near the towers when they fell to recruiting a Russian Spy asset. Some seriously intense stories, it flows like an episode of Homeland or something out of a spy novel. Then we go deep into the six-step system Robin has outlined to predict people’s future behavior, what motivated them, and some of the hard truths about behavior prediction.
Robin is a best-selling author, professional speaker, trainer, facilitator, and retired FBI Special Agent and Chief of the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. Robin has taken his life's work of recruiting spies and broken down the art of leadership, communication, and relationship building into Five Steps to TRUST and Six Signs of who you can TRUST. Since 2010, Robin has been working with large corporations as well as small companies in every aspect of their business. Whether it is newly promoted leaders, executives, sales teams, or customer relations, Robin has crafted his People Formula for quick results and maximum success. He is the author of both The Code of Trust and his latest book Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agent’s User Manual for Behavior Prediction.
Robin’s past and some of the incredible stories from the time he spent in the FBI and the cases he worked.
Why now was the time to write his new book!
A recap of our first episode and some of the main takeaways from his first book.
Stories of...
9/11 World Trade Center Attacks
Working a high-level Russian Asset.
The problem with gut feelings and how they can lead you into some poor decision making… or not.
The fundamental truth about predicting behavior.
The one thing you can almost always count on people to do when you are looking to predict their behavior.
The six steps to predicting behavior...
Vesting
Longevity
Reliability
Actions
Language
Stability
The Hard Truths About Predicting Behavior
Variability
Immunity
Vulnerability
The 50% Rule
Intuition
Appearances
Longevity
Perceptions
Persistence
Trust
Predicting behavior is NOT about good or evil or even truth or fiction.
Real-life examples of understanding the needs of others to predict their behavior.
How to reveal a dishonest person.
Robin’s choice for the best leader in history.
Homework: Find a way to stay connected to one another. Even if it’s online during a pandemic. Also, take note of others' priorities and talk in terms of those, keeping in mind how you can be of service.
Thank you so much for listening!
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Want To Dig In More?! - Here’s The Show Notes, Links, & Research
General
Robin’s Website, The People Formula
Media
The Nashville Ledger - “How to know who you can trust when the worst happens” By Terri Schlichenmeyer
Northern Nevada Business Weekly - “Biz & Books review: ‘Sizing People Up’ takes on behavior prediction and business” by Terri Schlichenmeyer
Parade - “Former FBI Agent Reveals 10 Signs You Might Be Getting Fired—and What to Do About It” Brittany Galla
Entrepreneur - “10 Signs People Believe In You and Want You to Succeed” by Robin Dreeke
INC - “7 Ways to Get Someone to Like You, According to an FBI Expert” By Melanie Curtin
Medium - “An FBI Analyst’s 6 Steps for Predicting People’s Behavior” by Robin Dreeke
CNBC Make It - “Former FBI agent of 21 years: These are the 8 biggest ‘warning signs’ that reveal a dishonest person” by Robin Dreeke
Opensource - “Crucial lessons in building trust from a former FBI agent” by Ron McFarland
News Break - Topic Robin Dreeke
Dr. Diane Hamilton - THE CODE OF TRUST WITH ROBIN DREEKE AND THE EVOLVING ENTREPRENEUR WITH NATHAN KIEVMAN
Knowledge@Wharton - How to Build Trust and Lead Effectively
[Podcast] The Smart People Podcast - 345 – ROBIN DREEKE – HOW TO RECRUIT A RUSSIAN SPY
[Podcast] Accidental Creative - Sizing People Up (with Robin Dreeke)
[Podcast] JumbleTHINK - The Life of a FBI Spymaster with Robin Dreeke
[Podcast] Break it Down Show - Robin Dreeke - Sizing People Up, Developing Trust
[Podcast] Roger Dooley - Sizing People Up with Robin Dreeke
[Podcast] Art of Manliness - Podcast #577: An FBI Agent’s 6 Signs for Sizing People Up
Videos
Robin’s YouTube Channel
DEFCONConference - Robin Dreeke - Sizing People Up - DEF CON 27 Social Engineering Village
Quotable - How to Build Rapport With Anyone, with Robin Dreeke [Sales Machine NYC 16]
Jenny Blake - 163: Sizing People Up with Robin Dreeke — Pivot Podcast with Jenny Blake
eSpeakers - Robin Dreeke: "Video Podcast about The Code of Trust"
SocialEngineerOrg - Ep. 120 – Sizing People Up - LIVE AT DEF CON 27 with Robin Dreeke
Modern Wisdom - How To Read Behaviour Like An FBI Agent | Robin Dreeke | Modern Wisdom Podcast #063
Books
Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agent's User Manual for Behavior Prediction by Robin Dreeke and Cameron Stauth
It's Not All About "Me": The Top Ten Techniques for Building Quick Rapport with Anyone by Robin K. Dreeke
The Code of Trust: An American Counterintelligence Expert's Five Rules to Lead and Succeed by Robin K. Dreeke and Joe Navarro
The People Formula Workbook by Robin K Dreeke
Misc
[SoS Episode] How This Government Agency Spy Recruiter Hacked Psychology To Change Anyone’s Behavior with Robin Dreeke
[Sos Episode] The Shades of Influence with Robin Dreeke and Chase Hughes
[White House Bios] Ronald Reagan
Episode Transcript
[00:00:04.4] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Science of Success. Introducing your host, Matt Bodnar.
[00:00:12] MB: Welcome to the Science of Success, the number one evidence-based growth podcast on the internet with more than 5 million downloads and listeners in over a hundred countries.
In this episode, I've got Austin in the studio with me. Austin, what's up?
[00:00:25] AF: What's going on, Matt? What’s going on everybody? It's good to be here.
[00:00:29] MB: I'm really excited to be turning the wheel over to Austin. He is going to be taking the lead on this episode. He's going to be the one interviewing Robin, and I'm really excited for all the wisdom and the insights that Austin brought to this conversation.
[00:00:42] AF: Yeah. It was really great, and you couldn't really pick a better guest for me to take the wheel on this one. Robin is just such a joy to talk to. We go deep into a lot of his content in the past. Obviously, a very extensive background in the FBI, and one of these are really enjoyed with the interview is his storytelling. It's extremely engaging. It’s extremely insightful. Looking forward to it. Excited to be taking the mic for a little while, and of course I would welcome any feedback or insights. So let’s start the conversation. Shoot an email, austin@successpodcast.com, and we'll go from there.
[00:01:15] MB: As longtime listeners will know, Austin is my business partner. He’s the producer of the show. He's been around since the very early days of the podcast. I'm really excited to be bringing him more into the content. He's going to be joining me for more interviews, more conversations and he's already been a part of a number of episodes that we've done. With that, I'll turn things over to Austin and we’ll get started with the episode.
[00:01:35] AF: Well, I really couldn't have picked a better interview to start my first solo interview with, and it’s Robin Dreeke. In this interview, we really dug deep into some of the stories from Robin's past including a lot of points in his new book. These stories including everything from being in New York City near the Towers fell, to recruiting a Russian spy asset. I mean, some really intense stories and it flows like an episode of a Homeland or something out of a spy novel. Then we go really deep into the six-step system. Robin has outlined to predict people's future behavior. What motivates them? And some of the hard truths about behavior prediction.
Now, are you a fan of the show? Do you like what you hear and you want to learn more? If you do, head to our website and sign up for our email list. You're going to get a ton of great information. We send out emails every week with curated content every Monday. We call it Mindset Monday, that we've really been ingesting that has made a really actionable impact on our lives and that we want to share with you.
On top of that, you’re going to get a free course we created called How to Create Time for What Matters Most and you’ll just have an open line of communication between myself and Matt and you. If this sounds like something you’re interested in, go to the website, www.successpodcast.com and sign up for the newsletter today.
Are you at the gym? Are you on the go? That's fine. Just text the words SMARTER, that's S-M-A-R-T-E-R TO 44222 and that will sign you up for the email list as well. Now, if you haven't had a chance, I recommend going back and listing to last week's episode with James Clear, James, like Robin, a second-time guest on the show, but an incredible interview that delivered a ton of value. In that episode, Matt and James show you exactly how to build the habits and routines that you need to succeed. How to break down what makes powerful habits and really share what I think is really one of the most important points for just how to stay motivated and productive no matter what happens. All that and more with Matt and our guest, James Clear, from last week's episode.
Now, without further ado, I present to you our interview with Robin Dreeke.
Robin Dreeke is a best-selling author, professional speaker, trainer, facilitator and retired FBI special agent and chief of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. Robin has taken his life's work of recruiting spies and broken down the art of leadership, communication and relationship building into five steps to trust and six signs of who you can trust.
Since 2010, Robin has been working with large corporations as well as small companies in every aspect of their business, whether it's newly promoted leaders, executives, sales teams, customer relations, everything, Robin has cover. Robin has crafted his People Formula for quick results and maximum success. He is also the author of the book The Code of Trust and his latest book, which we discussing this interview, Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agent’s User Manual for Behavior Prediction.
We hope you enjoy the show.
[00:04:44] AF: Robin, welcome back to the Science of Success.
[00:04:47] RD: Hey, it's a great place to be back to. I appreciate you having me back.
[00:04:52] AF: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's been a while. For listeners obviously who may have not listened to the first episode you have with us back in 2017. Just tell me about a little bit about yourself. What you do and kind of your story. I know it's a lot of ground to cover, but just give us some context here for those who may not know.
[00:05:05] RD: Sure. I’ll give you the quick bullet points on it. I’m a ‘92 Naval Academy graduate. From there, I went to the Marine Corps. From there, in 1997, I went into the FBI. In the FBI, I did nothing but counterintelligence. Basically, I recruited spies and I served in New York, Norfolk, FBI headquarters, Quantico, Virginia and Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 2010, I took over as the chief of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program and retired a couple years ago. Since 2010, I've been running my own company, People Formula, which is all about developing trust and relationships for every aspect of your life.
[00:05:40] AF: That's a nice little summary there. I can see that you’ve done that a time or two. On top of all that, you failed to mention writing some pretty kick-ass books from them.
[00:05:48] RD: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I got three books out. My first one I self-published back when I'm still working at Quantico. It's called It's Not All About Me: The Top 10 techniques for Building Quick Rapport With Anyone, and my wife routinely holds that book up in front of me daily and says, “Hey, remember this. It’s not all about.”
Then the next one that we met on and we chatted before, which was The Code of Trust. That came out in 2017, and that is a book about behaviors that you need to exhibit in order to inspire, trust to build good healthy relationships. My current one, which is called Sizing People Up, which is all about assessing others for trustworthiness, but I quickly redefined trustworthiness because that can be very subjective and can be fraught with a little danger a little often times, but it actually comes down to predictability of what people are going to generally probably do in different situations. Really, for the main point of it is, how could we understand people at a much deeper level so we can continue to build upon those great healthy relationships both personal and professional? And in today's world, it's extremely applicable to virtual as well. For every aspect of our lives, and even today when we’re dealing with COVIT-19, people are doing a lot of online interacting, training, selling, leading, and it's all completely applicable to every aspect.
[00:07:05] AF: Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. I mean, your work is so fascinating. It’s something that I kind of nerd out about in general, but just the whole idea of like how you establish rapport. How you go about these relationships? Especially given your background, it's extremely counterintuitive to a lot of what I think people say. I mean, even going through your bio, I think a lot of people probably recognize some of those acronyms. They would kind of assume from television or everything how your life must have been, but the way you actually were as effective as you were and to have a career as long as you’re dead and are continuing to have that's sort of influence, it's kind of counterintuitive.
[00:07:36] RD: Yeah, and thanks. It absolutely is. From that background, you can hear, I am a biologically, genetically coded hardcore type A, which in all human beings, we are genetically coded for survival and self-prosperity. We always are looking to self-promote in most situations, but if you're wanting to develop trust and healthy relationships, you've got to make it about others. You have to understand how do you make a conversation about everyone else but yourself? How do you become a resource for the success of others? Because ultimately if you're not talking in terms of what's important to someone else in terms of their safety, security and prosperity, you're wasting your breath, because really, no one is paying attention unless it's important to them. This whole process that I came to understand as why I call my books my manuals on how not to be the moron I was born to be. It’s about how do you do this? It's a subjective art form that half the population is born with and the other half of us are trying to figure out what they're doing, and yet the ones that are doing it naturally have no idea how to articulate it because they're just being who they are. I like breaking down this beautiful poetic mosaic of art into a paint by number for folks like me.
[00:08:50] AF: Yeah. I love it. I absolutely love it. I am curious too, kind of taking a step back. Last time you’re on the show back in 2017 to discuss The Code of Trust. Very kind of counterintuitive to a lot of people’s kind of gut feelings and how to build relationships. The new book, Sizing People Up, is a little different. How was it different writing the two books and kind of how did you go about sort of, in some ways, kind of expanding on but adding to the work you’ve done in the past?
[00:09:14] RD: It was fun. It was a natural progression that happened. Code of Trust came out, and I live the code. I try my best to live the coda of trust every day, which is how do you make it about everyone else but yourself? You seek their thoughts and opinions. Talk in terms of their priorities. Validate people and give them choices. That ensures the conversations about them.
What happened was because the code of trust, in order to inspire trust in others, you have to really focus on people very, very deeply to understand them. What I was realizing was, “Wow! The more I understood people, the more predictable they became.” So there's some very easy truths about human beings, and one of them is that human beings are exceptionally predictable, and this what I found after living the code of trust for a while, was that every human being is genetically and biologically coded to take care and support our own safety, security and prosperity. We will always act in our own best interest in terms of safety, security and prosperity.
All I have to do now is figure out what you think is in your best interest and I now know what you're going to do. That's where it all started from. And so I really took a deeper dive to understand, “All right. What are some signs that I can actually reasonably predict someone's going to do that makes them more predictable?” Again, because I want to understand people. Code of trust about my behavior that I can do to inspire trust. The next book, this one, Sizing People Up, is actually really focusing on the behavior of others and assessing them.
[]00:10:39 RD: Yeah, I love that. Then the point, the one thing you can almost always count on, can always predict people to do, is to act in our own best interest. It was really huge for me. I want to come back to that. But one of the things that grabbed me, and I really can't recommend the book enough, was kind of the way that you utilized storytelling to get a lot of these points across. I mean, you start the book out with an incredibly powerful story and then it kind of goes into this longer narrative, and it really reads like something out of Homeland. I mean, I’m a big like Homeland show time fan, but it really grabs you. Do you mind kind of sharing like setting the stage for what the narrative is and how you kind of start these stories? Because I mean, once I started, I couldn't stop.
[00:11:16] RD: Yeah, and thanks. Actually, it’s so funny. Not funny, but kind of tragic at the same time right now. We’re kind of going through the same type of time period. The book really kicks off at 9/11 in New York City. In my career in the FBI, I started in New York City in 1997 in Manhattan and I was there until around 2005 or 2006. I was there. My office building was about five or six blocks away from the World Trade Center and I was in the office. Actually, I was on the street when the North Tower got hit by the planes, the first plane coming down the Hudson. I immediately went up to my floor, which I worked on, which is the 25th floor in 26 Federal Plaza. Me and a bunch of other agents are looking at this phenomenon that was going on, and it was looking like a movie., but it didn’t really hit you yet. Because remember, this is when the first tower had gotten hit.
I'm watching the smoke starting to expand on the floor in which it went in and it's getting worse, and I remember thinking to myself, “Man! How the heck are they going to put that fire out?” Then the South Tower got hit and I remember that came through like a fireball, like we’ve all seen on TV. When you're watching it live, it looked like a movie.
But the thing that really started to strike me right away was I was counting – You're watching and you're seeing what you thought was debris falling from the north tower, and when you took a closer look, you realized your mind wasn't really wrapping around it, but actually you’re seeing arms and legs flailing on the way down. I remember I was counting – It was weird. I was trying to time in between what I’ve seen you people jumping to see if it was getting worse or better, and I was on number eight when the South Tower got hit.
[00:12:55] AF: Oh my God!
[00:12:56] RD: Yeah. The whole thing starts off there. There is an engine that landed about 30 or 40 feet from my car. The plane that hit the South Tower, one of the engines flew up far enough north that land pretty close to my car. The whole thing kicks off with me in New York City. I'd been an agent from ‘97 to when this happened in 2001. So about 4, 4-1/2 years or so. What had happened was, and I explained in book, one of my brand-new confidential human sources I had, we call him Leo in the book. Again, I protect identities of everyone and I split and spliced all the cases together so that I don't give up anything, as otherwise the FBI prepublication review would've been all over me.
[00:13:32] AF: Sure. Sure.
[00:13:34] RD: But it really kicks off with Leo. I'd worked Russians most of my career, and especially to that point, it’s nothing. But I remember going to Leo and said, “Hey, we need to kind of retool ourselves here and do something different and go after folks in the Middle East to try to get some intelligence so we can do something to help this.” Yeah, he came up with an individual pretty rapidly that was tied to a leader of another country, a Middle Eastern country, and I don't want to name anything. But the challenge at that time was can I trust Leo? Can I trust this individual that says he's got these ties to this foreign leader when he’s willing to share information? Then how do I inspire my management to trust me as well with only 4, 4-1/2 years in that I'm not going to cause some international incident? It was really a critical time to really figure out very rapidly, like I have an opportunity to do something to help and make a difference, and yet I have all these different factors. I’m the spoke in the hub on all these and how do I get everyone on board to move things forward?
[00:14:38] AF: Yeah. I mean, it really is. It grabs you from the beginning and it reads like fiction. It's like something out of a spy novel, and obviously you lived it. So it definitely is the source material there. But when you were going through, especially like in the first contact you made with the Leo character, it’s cool how it reads like fiction, and it's a story, but there are lessons embedded in the story that you then come back and outline more clearly. I want to dig into some of the six-step system that you’ve outlined and everything. But something you mentioned as you are talking to Leo the first time was he would come out, he thought he was drunk. He was like making a drink, but he'd have like weird moments of clarity. His eyes were piercing and some of the stuff he did you sort of reacted in a way that you even know in the book. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have reacted that way.
One thing that really stuck out to me too kind of even before Leo, mentioning of Leo’s story, was regarding gut feelings. The quote you have was, “I had a great deal of confidence and gut feelings back then. Now, I don't.” What's the problem with our gut feelings and our gut reactions when we’re sort of reacting to a situation?
[00:15:40] RD: Yeah. Gut feeling is that intuition kind of aspect that people have or will sometimes depend upon a lot. I'm not discounting it. I like to kind of bifurcate different aspects of it. There is one aspect of that gut feeling that can really undermine us a little bit in assessing others, and that is liking someone or disliking someone, because liking – Well, if you like someone, it’s not a paintbrush that everyone does this or no one does this. Extremes on anything are usually fraught with danger. Anyway, but in general, when you like someone, it’s because you share the same morals, ethics beliefs, background, interests, things like that.
If you like someone, you think you can trust them. But unfortunately, just because you share all these kind of similarities, it doesn't mean you can actually trust them to perform a certain function. The greatest analogy I use is like flying. I'm a pilot and I volunteer as an angel flight pilot, and just because I trust you doesn't mean I can throw you the keys to the plane and trust you to fly us and not kill us. I mean, liking. If I like you, it doesn't mean I can trust you to fly us and not kill us, because that's not in your skillset because I can’t – A lot of people overlap that liking with trust, and no. Intuition is kind of a very subjective, and one of the things that goes into intuition is whether you like someone or don't like someone. It creates a very big bias in our minds when we regard people. That's one area I like to kind of try to avoid, because it's kind of fraught with peril.
[00:17:16] AF: Yeah, and it makes perfect sense as to why it would be. I think even now, kind of as we look at a country, it's sometimes can seem very polarizing and a lot of times we’re making our opinions on situations simply based on whether or not we even think we might like somebody or dislike somebody.
[00:17:31] RD: You brought up a great point there. Polarizing is absolutely right. Just think about President Trump. We don't have to talk politics at all. Here's why I think the country is so divided on this, is because he is probably arguably – He was the most well-known candidate to run for president in our history, because he had done so much reality TV, had been out there for so long. I mean, I remember in New York years and years ago when he had Trump Airlines. I mean, he's been around a long time.
When someone's around that long and they are that well-known, you form whether you like him or don't like him. On either side, when you have that bias, it does not matter anything that person does. You see it through an optic of liking or disliking, and that's why both sides are really dug in. I mean, just ask yourself, “Who’s members of my family don't like him?”
I asked one of them when I came up with this theory about why he’s so polarizing and I remember they said, “Well, I don't believe that. That's not what I think at all.” I said, “Okay. Well, help me understand. So you don't like him. Correct?” They said, “Yes.” I said, “All right. Is there anything he could do that you would agree?” “Oh! Absolutely not.” I said, “There you go.”
[00:18:39] AF: Yeah.
[00:18:41] RD: You just think of the reactions that both sides have regarding him. The people that like him, he can do no wrong in anything. The people who don't like him, there's nothing he can do right. When I brought this up before, the same can be said of Hillary Clinton as well because she's been around a long time. It's a very polarizing time I think and it’s because social media and media is so prevalent in everyone's lives that everyone really knows everyone. Maybe not for who they are, but at least they’ve been out there. You get that liking or disliking bias in there and it really clouds the ability to objectively look at cause-and-effect of behaviors.
[00:19:23] AF: This episode of the Science of Success is brought to you once again by our incredible sponsors at Brilliant. Go to www.brilliant.org/scienceofsuccess to learn more. For a limited time, the first 200 of our listeners to sign up get 20% off in annual premium subscription. Brilliant is a math and science learning platform and they’re mission is to inspire and develop people to achieve their goals in STEM learning. I love it. The courses Brilliant offer explore the laws that shape our world and elevate math and science from something to be feared to a delightful experience.
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[00:20:50] AF: It's interesting. For me, personally, I find it like I'm the kind of person that typically I will like somebody. If they pass the gut test, I’ll like him. Until they give me a reason to, I typically trust people. Problem is as you go through life, the older you get, the more experience you have, and I'm kind of starting to realize, “Well, maybe that blind trust, that deep front is not warranted,” maybe just because you kind of look like me. I shouldn't just automatically think that I kind of like you.
What are some things that we can do to kind of maybe take a step back and start to develop a natural sort of assessment versus just kind jumping in and liking or not liking or trusting just because that’s how we've always done or how we've always interacted with people that may look or act like us.
[00:21:33] RD: Well, and that's a great question. And I'm like you, and I think a lot of people are. I start from the default of liking, liking and trust, because that gives me the ability to have curiosity. Because if I have curiosity about you, I'm going to find out about you. When I find out about you, then I'm going to start being able to assess unbiasly.
I'm just like you. Not a problem at all. But the first I think people always ask me, “So what's something I can do really fast to start assessing someone whether I should trust them or not trust them?” I said language is probably – Again, it's number five on my list. Language is really easy to quickly assess. What I'm looking for in language, and you can assess this in the first couple minutes when you're dialoguing with someone. Are they making the conversation about themselves or are they making the conversation about you? How do you do that? How do you asses that? People – Here’s another truism about human beings. We are genetically coded to want to belong to meaningful groups and organizations, affiliate with them and be valued by them. Language that demonstrates that is seeking thoughts and opinions. Talk in terms to that person's priorities. Validate who they are, their thoughts and opinions without judging them and give them choices.
What I'm looking for rapidly in a conversation with someone is are they seeking my thoughts and opinions? Are they talking in terms of my priorities? My needs, wants, dreams and aspirations, things that are important to me? Are they validating me without arguing with me, or challenging me, or judging me, and are they, if appropriate, give me choices? Because that's what I'm doing when I'm interacting with someone, because that's how I inspire trust. What I'm looking for is, is that person at least 50% of the time doing those things with me? Now, if they’re saying those things and have a least one of those things in every sentence they say, now I'm going to look for nonverbal congruence. In other words, I'm looking for good high-comfort nonverbal displays while they're saying these things indicating that they have high-comfort and confidence with making the conversation about me. Most likely, this is someone who’s stepping off on the right foot with me.
High-comfort things I'm looking for is smiling, a little bit of a head tilted to the side, exposing the side of the neck in the carotid artery. Saying, “Hey, I trust you not to rip my jugular out.” I’m looking for eyebrow elevation rather than compression. Basically, anything that's coming up and out and open with the body, which is saying I'm open and accommodating. When you see that kind and nonverbal display with someone using words like that, that's a really good first indicator.
[00:24:01] AF: No. It's interesting, and I really want to follow your lead here. I really want to seek your thoughts on one additional thing right before I dive into what I know. One of your priorities is, is to kind of get into the real six-step system, which just hearing your language, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts on. But you mentioned predicting behavior of others is not about good or evil, or truth or fiction. And then I'm curious, how does that tie back to that people will always act in their own interests? Because it's not clear-cut. But when I’m doing research, I noticed you said it's not about good or evil, truth or fiction. It's more nuanced, but then everyone's going to act in their own self-interest. What's that relationship there? How do you kind of suss out what might be your good or your evil and how predicting behavior kind of goes into how you view what those interests maybe that other people have?
[00:24:47] RD: People acting in their normal best interests comes down to what they think their best interests are and their context. This is all about where context comes in. In understanding someone else's context without judging them is something that I learned over time. I come from the Northeast. I was born in Manhattan. I grew up north of the city. I'm an extrovert from New York City, which makes me exceptionally judgmental. Cap that with my personality type, which is on the Myers-Briggs ENTJ, extroverted, intuitive thinking, judger, which means life’s natural leader, the executive. Oh no! When you're 20 years old, I called it narcissistic megalomania jerk.
When you put all those things together, you get a very, very judgmental human being. But when I was in the line of work for as long as I was, 21 years, here's another guarantee. If you knock on someone's front door and your job is to develop a relationship to hopefully gain intelligence to protect the National of the Security United States and you knock on that front door with a preconceived notion of right and wrong, of evil or good, and someone comes to the door that doesn't look like you r o speak like you and you're going to judge them, I can guarantee what it's going to happen. Shields up, no information. You're going to fail. If I fail, that means intelligence collection fails, which means your national security is compromised all because I was too full of myself to get over myself to understand their context at how they saw the world through their optics. It really comes down to this whole thing, is understanding what they think is in their best interest, not judging what they think is in their best interest and understanding why and how they think that way. In other words, have curiosity.
I started building a lot of muscle memory over never being shocked by who I encountered, what their thoughts and beliefs were, and just being curious about it. Because once I started understandings – Because that's what validation is, that third thing out of the four things I say you do, is validate someone without judging them. IT doesn't mean I'm agreeing with you. It means I'm seeking to understand you. Human beings don't necessarily need you to agree with them. Human beings are just want to be heard and understood at a very primal level, because, again, when someone feels like they’re heard and understood, they feel like they’re being accepted part of that tribe, because our genetics are saying, “If you're not part of a tribe or a collective, the likelihood of your survival is slim to none.”
Every time it's been demonstrated that we’re accepting an understanding, our brain is releasing dopamine. All the pleasure centers in the brain are firing. That's where you have to build that understanding of trying to dig deep to understand context. Again, no right, no wrong, no evil or good, just understanding.
[00:27:17] AF: It's interesting. I think that's probably at least in my mind where a lot of kind of like popular culture or popular opinion might get all of this wrong, is it's not just so clear-cut. It's all about context and understanding how they view the world so you can understand what their priorities are.
[00:27:34] RD: Yeah. You can take it at a really light level to understand it, because I remembered when someone asked me, or quite a few times, “Hey, Robin. You worked Russia most of your career. Are you a Russian expert?” I think, “Hey, if you’ve done something for over 10 years, it makes you an expert in that field.” All I said back to him, I said, “Well, you lived in the United States your entire life. Are you an American expert?”
[00:27:53] AF: Yeah, that's a really, really good point.
[00:27:55] RD: I mean, just even my own state. I live in Virginia. It’s not even a state. It's a Commonwealth. If you go out to what we call the I-81 corridor in the West – It's Interstate 81. You start north, which is in Winchester, Virginia and you go all the way down to Bristol, Virginia. You probably go through at least three different dialects and accents ways of living life, and then you have the Richmond area, which is different, and you have the Norfolk and the Tidewater. Northern Virginia, which is all transplants around DC. I mean, and that’s just one Commonwealth. The context that everyone has about how they see the world to their particular optic is very, very different in all that.
I mean, when you look at the political map for a state or my Commonwealth, our state has a Democratic governor and our Democratic senators. So it's blue in those areas. But when you look at the voting population across the state, it's very, very red. That just shows you, it's just a different demographic, different context, different belief systems. All these things are just different. No right or wrong. It's just what it is. Diving deep to understand that is really, really important, because that's what, again, people are seeking.
[00:28:58] AF: Yeah, I love that point, and I think it’s lost on so many folks. Switching gears here a little bit. In Sizing People Up, you've got the six-step system outlined and you already dove into language, which actually just hearing you explain it, you had a little lot more than I was even expecting. Do you mind sharing that system with us and maybe going – I don’t want to give away the farm, but at a high level kind of what each of these different steps in the system outlined. Then there's a couple that caught my eye that I kind of want to dig into. But take us through it if you don’t mind.
[00:29:26] RD: Sure. These six signs, and there is no one sign that's more important than the other and you don't have to have all six. These are just indicators of predictability in different aspects and areas. The first one is vesting. Vesting is how much is this individual I’m engaged with vested in my success as much as they’re vested in their own?
Signs of vesting that you can have in the workplace or simply if my boss is vested in me, he or she is going to send me to training. They're going to put me in jobs that are going to enhance my resume. They're going to include being projects that are good for my career. That someone who is invested as much is in me, in my success, as they are their own. Because I know if I'm successful, they'll be successful. It's one of those if you win, I win kind of scenarios.
The next is longevity. Longevity is, “Does this person individual? Are they indicating through their actions, words and deeds?” They see this relationship together as long or is it short-term quid pro quo? Signs of longevity are kind of like vesting, but they’re more in the area of we established traditions together. We get together for coffee once a month, or in today's world, we’re having a Zoom happy hour once a week. I mean, there're all new traditions being established now to demonstrate longevity and a desire to continue long beyond just today. Your boss gives you projects that aren’t due next week, but are maybe something that's going to be due in a year or two. That's a good sign of longevity.
Reliability – Reliability is the combination of ability as well as diligence to do it. In other words, you’re competence to do the job that you say you can. In other words, if your resume says you can do something, that's great, but do actually have the skills, and ability, and diligence to follow through on it? I'm looking for reliability. In other words, are they just talking the talk? Are they talking the talk and walking the walk? That combination there.
Actions – Actions is kind of a twofold thing with me. Actions, I'm looking for positive actions that people take. In other words, they say positive things about people behind their back. They don't spread gossip. They don't spread rumors. They’re very positive in their actions, in their words that they’re doing. As well as, my favorite part of it is, and that is I call it past patterns and key behaviors. In other words, if I see you do a certain task or a job the same way like two or three times in a row, the likelihood of you doing that same way four, five and six times is pretty dang hi. Unless – Now if it changes and you don't do something the same way, then that means something went sideways in your life. There’s a new stimulus that came in there, which gives me curiosity. “All right. What happened? Here are the causes.” A change. That's what actions are about.
Language, we already went over. I'm looking forward, seeking my thoughts and opinions. Talking in terms of my priorities. Validating me, which we just talked about, and empower me with choices. Finally, sign six is stability. That relates to emotional stability. When times of stress and like we’re going through right now, are people going off the rails and staying off the rails or do they have the ability to maintain emotional stability and come back to good cognitive thought and process?
[00:32:28] AF: Out of these six, if I'm using this system to predict behavior, how susceptible would this be to someone who's trying to manipulate us or lie to us? Because it seems to me that one of these – I have experienced someone being able to use one, two, maybe three of these to manipulate, but all six would seem difficult. How do we kind of spot someone who might be using these to try to mislead us or manipulate us?
[00:32:52] RD: I get a lot of questions a lot about manipulation. As I've said before, I am the counterintelligence spy recruiting guy, that I am 100% anti-manipulation. There’s a long way around to answer your question, but I have these three anchors that I do, which are my absolute end goals in every situation and encounter I have with every human being. My number one is a good, healthy professional relationship, because if I don't have a good healthy relationship, everything else will fall apart. It doesn't matter what little milestone I'm trying to achieve in life. You cannot achieve anything without good relationships.
I always say you can have the greatest genetics, biology and intelligence on the planet, but without relationships, you might as well be a moron on top of a mountain by yourself, because you will achieve nothing. Everything comes down to moving forward in life with relationships. I value that above all. In order to have those, the second step is you have to have open, honest communication transparency. That's the key that I'm looking for to ensure that I don't deal with manipulators, because people say, “How many times did people try to manipulate you, Robin, using the same techniques?” I said, “It doesn't happen.” “What do you mean it doesn't happen?” “Well, it doesn't happen,” because if you're talking in such a way, which you're using a lot of words, a lot of confusion, or you're trying to beat around the bush on a certain topic or whatever it is and I seek transparency, because again, healthy relationships are based on open dialogue and transparency. If I'm seeking transparency and you're not giving it, that means I'm not ever going to say you’re a manipulator. All I'm going to say is that, to myself, is that you are not looking for a healthy relationship in this lane, and I'm going to back away.
I avoid the manipulation. I spot it, because if you're not looking to have an open, honest communication and transparency with me in this area, that means something's off. It might be an attempt of manipulation. Manipulation – People generally don't think of themselves as manipulators. They’re trying to get what they want, which is pretty much the same thing. But if they’re trying to get what they want, which is fine, but if they're trying to get what they want with use of deception and a subterfuge, yes, manipulation. I back away.
The other thing I'm looking forward to is that congruence. I talked about the congruence between language and those nonverbal indicators of comfort. I'm looking for the same thing in all these signs. I should be seeing, when you're interacting with me and we have a good healthy relationship, I should see nothing but good comfort nonverbal displays. If I’d start seeing stress displays where we got a lot of close body positions blading away, leaning away, lip compression, eyebrow compression, all the things that are kind of scrunching the body in, at the same time they're trying to say these positive things. That means we have incongruence. That's what gives us that creepy used car salesman's feeling. It’s that incongruence between good words and technique, but feelings and emotions that are completely opposite of that, which gives that negative nonverbal indicators. That’s what I’m looking for. I’m looking for transparency and congruence to make sure that we are not dealing with a manipulator.
[00:35:50] AF: When you look at these six steps, it's interesting. They're not all mutually exclusive, because reading through a lot of this, I was reminded of, we've got a company that does restaurant technology, and obviously restaurants right now in the midst of a COVID-19 crisis is just appended, right? One of the things that we do is online ordering. I was talking to a large company and they wanted to implement online ordering, because right, curbside, you have so many phone lines and yadi-yada. We were talking, and basically it was like, “Can you waive fees through all these?” I was like, “Sure. We can get very creative. I know it’s a difficult time.” But if we’re going to waive a lot of fees and we’re going to do discounted pricing in the long run, what we’re going to need is you at least a year to three-year long contract.
Then it was like, “Woah! Woah! Woah! Woah! Woah!” Like, “Well, we’re not really in a time to sign a long term contract. We just don’t know where things are going to be.” But trust me, we want a long term partner, but we want to start with no contract just month-to-month with the first couple months waived.
In my head I was like, “Okay. So we’re going to go month-to-month. We’re going to waive the first three months, but you're not going to put your name down on anything that would tie you to us for any longer than that.” It seemed a little weird to me. But going through like the six-step system and also some of the things you look for manipulators, all the people I talked to were extremely informative. They were extremely transparent. Obviously, they told me the situation. They seemed very comfortable. Of courses, it’s all digital. But the more I kind of read through your system, it was like I don't think they're being intentionally manipulative. I think it's more just laying your cards on the table and showing what is said actually a win for me, which then allows me to work to see what would be a win-win.
If I just went with the one, I'd be like, “Well, you guys are being dishonest. You’re trying to manipulate me into working for free. No. No. No. We’re going to leave it,” which would then kind of shut me down to establishing that healthy relationship. But if I can kind of get this full picture, I mean, especially using this framework, like they hit every single box except for longevity, which – I mean, they respond to emails. They pick up phone calls. They're very responsive. But looking at just longevity I’d like, “Wow! They're trying to manipulate me,” which is what I thought.
Honestly, about six hours ago, because now I think through. It’s like, “Well, they are reliable. Their actions are – They are following through in what they’re saying they’re going to do. They’re very stable in answering the phone. They don't get very emotional about things.” It changes immediately. The short-term interactions you’ve been having, or not short-term, but the recent ones. I mean, it's amazing how this lens can be just put on and immediately kind of change your interactions.
[00:38:26] RD: What a great perfect example that is too. I don't really talk about in this. I talk about it in my first book. What they gave you in return was they gave you a time constraint, because a lot of times time constraints make people feel a lot more comfortable because they feel like they have a little more control. They were giving you all the great signs. As you described it, it’s like, “Oh! They’re hitting on everything.” Because the big thing they’re hitting on with you is what? You said it. Transparency. They’re being as transparent, but they gave you a time constraint, because people right now are fearful of long-term relationships because we don't know what tomorrow is. I think it's very reasonable for people to say all these other things in this right way, but so what we don't have right now is the signs of longevity because of fear. But as long as someone is being transparent about their unwillingness to do it, that's trustworthy, or that’s predictable, because they’re transparent about it.
Now, if they were hemming and hawing and trying to make excuses. No! That someone that’s – But if they’re being so transparent. They’re giving you all these other positive signs. Yeah, it sounds like a good deal.
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[00:41:13] AF: One of the things too, and this is kind of sticking in this like sort of business vein, but what role does persistence have in like predicting behavior and establishing these relationships? Because when you think about salespeople, it's like if you’re too persistent, you can turn people off and you can claim them up, right? But then by being persistent, you position yourself and sometimes it could be six months where it’s just not a good fit right now. We don't want to do it. But then all of a sudden, something happens, and all the sudden I want to be your best friend. How do we kind of tow that line between persistence and just kind of being annoying?
[00:41:50] RD: Yeah. The annoying persistence is when someone is continually badgering you or contacting you and all they keep doing is talking about what they want. My third thing, as I said, I was going to have at least three anchors, and I only gave you the two. Healthy relationships [inaudible 00:42:07] communication and transparency, and the third anchor, so it's a good lead-in, is I make myself an available resource for the success and prosperity of others without expectation or reciprocity. This is where the third anchor comes in with persistence.
I make myself an available resource. Meaning, I make myself available. I don't impose myself from your life unless you want me to, and I'm available. I don't offer help, because that can be very demeaning to some people. I offer my resources. Because, again, what sales? What's business? Business is nothing more than understanding the priorities of someone else and offering them resources that you have in terms of those priorities. As long as when you're making contact – I mean, I deal a lot with the finance industry and customer relations and building, these things are long-term relationships of building predictability and trust with someone.
How's that work so you're not badgering someone? As long as you're continually talking in terms of their priorities and knowing what their priorities are and as you see things in the world shift that might affect their priorities and you have resources that can help them mitigate those things, that’s someone who’s continually talking in terms of their priorities.. I would not say that’s someone who’s badgering. That’s someone who’s continually being available for their success and prosperity as things shift and change.
Now, if you keep doing the same thing again and again, that's badgering. But if you keep shifting your resources in terms of them and their changing times, that someone who’s actually paying attention and you’re talking in terms their priorities.
[00:43:33] AF: I love that distinction. It’s so powerful too. Really, for anyone listening to this who is in the sales field, or really in business in general, I think that's a huge takeaway and how you should communicate with people that are either your customers or you want to be your customers or really any relationship you have in the workplace.
[00:43:50] RD: There’s a great movie, an older one, I absolute love. It’s called Secondhand Lions, and this is about two older guys that came back from serving the foreign legion. They’re living out in the middle nowhere in Texas and their estranged nephew gets dumped off by another family member. This little guy is living in this house and the whole thing takes place, I think it’s in the – It’s probably in the 50s, late 50s, early 60s. What was really amazing was all these sales, because they heard that these two guys had millions of dollars stashed away in cash. So you had all these traveling salesman show up at their property, trying to sell them what they wanted to sell the make money to these two older guys. These guys would sit on the front porch with her two shotguns and they shoot them up in the air, scaring all the salesman off, but there's this one salesman that kept coming back. After he came back like three times, and the third time he comes back, because he saw that they were shooting shotguns, when he came back, he had a skeet, a skeet thing on the back of his car that he towed in there. He said, “Hey, I noticed that you are two sporting guys like yourself, and I got just the perfect thing that only kings use these days.” He set up this trap and skeet thing that shot the clay pigeons out in the air and he took out a shot gun in the back of his trunk and he shot it and they saw the clay pigeon explode. So they bought it. What this demonstrates it all the other salesman could try to sell these two older guys the things that they wanted to sell the make money. This guy actually paid attention to their priorities and brought something for them and they made a good business deal.
[00:45:17] AF: What a great, great example. It’s called Secondhand Lions?
[00:45:21] RD: Yeah. It's got Michael Kane and another famous actor. Good, good, good, wholesome show.
[00:45:26] AF: Okay. Great. Yeah, we try to keep it wholesome here on the show, but I’ll be sure to link that in the show notes. Robin, I've really enjoyed the conversation. I know we don't have too much time left. I've got two just kind of quick wrap up questions and then we’ll let you go. But I'm curious, this is a little out there, but if you could interview yourself anyone alive or dead today, who would it be? I mean, you’ve had such a colored career and you’ve obviously been extremely successful and you've been through a lot. If you could talk to anybody and pick their brain, who would you pick?
[00:45:59] RD: Oh my gosh! I probably had a whole long list. I'm not impressed with fame or fortune or anything. The most impressive people that I admire in life are the ones that are really, really self-aware that have great humility and humbleness. I would say anyone that has demonstrated that, I’d be very, very curious about them. I am, I have a good friend of mine that I served with in New York. He rose up to the ranks of the FBI and now he works high-level in the state of New Jersey. I always asked him. I said, “How are you made?”
I'd be interested by people like Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Jesus. I mean, all the historical figures in life that just seem to elevate themselves beyond to see life with great clarity of, again, not judging, but just for what people were without judging them. Boy! There’s a whole. Actually, you know what? Because of when up, I'd probably say at the top of my list, it’d probably Ronald Reagan.
[00:46:59] AF: Great answer. Yeah, I love too. It’s even interesting to hear you kind of out loud go through your mind as to what would exemplify that. Even that just says volumes. I think about you and your character and just kind of how you would even look at someone. I think it’d be easy for a lot of people to say like Elon Musk, like Steve Jobs, or somebody that obviously a brilliant mind. No doubt about that, but it really shows a lot about your priorities and what you value to kind of hear you even go through that mental exercise.
[00:47:29] RD: Oh, thanks. Yeah, I love anyone that has the ability to laugh at them self and self-deprecating. As someone with a great amount of self-confidence, but not arrogance. Those are my favorite people in life.
[00:47:40] AF: Yeah, I think it's very important to laugh at yourself if you’re going to sane in today’s world. At least I hope that’s the case, because I laugh myself a lot.
[00:47:47] RD: We need it now. Humor will get us through this. There is no doubt. My parting emails on everyone now is stay safe, healthy, and sane.
[00:47:55] AF: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s so relevant, and I couldn't agree with you more. Last question for you, Robin, and then I want to make sure that everybody has a chance to go find your work and know where to find you, but what's one piece of homework that you would give the audience? I mean, we went through 2017. What now given the current sort of lay of the land, the current predicaments we find ourselves in? What kind of one piece of homework that you would give the audience to go out and start implementing some of these things that you've written and talked about today?
[00:48:26] RD: The greatest thing that we have going on right now is the fact that I know we’re stuck at home doing a lot of things virtually, but it has not changed what each of us is seeking and craving, and we can still give that to each other online, which is – I mean, if this was going to happen in any point in history, this is probably the best point, because we still have the ability to interact. We see each other, whether we’re doing Zoom or Skype or something like that. Here’s the greatest thing you can do for another human being right now; seek their greatness and take note of it, because here's another guarantee. We’re all working on something. Every human being is born pretty perfect and the world messes us up for about 19 years and we spend the rest of our lives trying to unscrew. We’re all working on something. Seek their greatness, whether it’s personal, professional. When you seek their greatness, you’re going to start seeing the person in a positive manner.
The second thing to do is start taking note of other people's priorities, their needs, wants, dreams and aspirations, personal, professional, long-term, short-term and make sure that you're talking in terms those and start asking yourself, “How can I be a resource for this person’s success in terms of their priorities? When you start doing those two things, you’re going to start seeing relationships get very, very deep very quickly. When we start doing that for each other, you're going to start seeing that the synergy is going to really start happening, because this is what good relationships are built upon. I don't care whether you’re doing it in business world, sales world, hedge fund. Without good healthy relationships, you're not can move forward. So those are two great things you can do right now to start moving in.
[00:49:52] AF: Amen. I love that homework. Last, Robin, we want to make sure everybody can find you. What's the best place for them to learn more, of course, buy the book and just dig into your work in general?
[00:50:02] RD: Absolutely. Peopleformula.com. That's my company, all one word. Peopleformula.com. I’m actually in the midst of role now my online training courses, the People Formula Certification Courses. I got one out now. I'm hoping to have another one out this week. I want to do a deeper dive in all my stuff Please go there. You can also reach out for me, there's also YouTube videos me doing keynotes on their and more podcasts. There's lots of resources for whatever you want to do.
[00:50:28] AF: Yeah, I can't stress this enough. I mean, we don’t do this with every guest, but definitely go out there and follow Robin's work. It’s something that you’ll be able to ingest easily and it’ll be entertaining, but it will also make a huge, huge impact on your life.
Again, the book is called Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agent’s User Manual for Behavioral Prediction. Out now, Amazon, all booksellers. Check it out. Robin, thank you so much for coming back on the show. I hope we get to do it again one day, but keep up the good work.
[00:50:52] RD: Thank you. You guys too. Remember, stay safe, stay healthy, stay sane.
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