The Science of Success Podcast

View Original

Lessons From A Year In Space - A Conversation with Astronaut Scott Kelly

Lace Gilger
See this content in the original post

In this episode we share the lessons from Astronaut Scott Kelly's amazing career - form what it takes to become an astronaut, to surviving NASA's grueling training, the powerful experience of being in outer space and the lessons you can apply to your life with our guest the first human to spend a year in space - Scott Kelly.

Scott Kelly is an American engineer, retired astronaut, author and naval aviator. He is best known for spending a record-breaking year in space. He is a former US Navy fighter pilot, test pilot, and veteran of four spaceflights. Kelly commanded the space shuttle Endeavour in 2007 and twice commanded the International Space Station. He has documented his experiences in both films and his books including Endurance: My Year in Space, A Lifetime of Discovery, My Journey To the Stars, and most recently his children’s book Goodnight Astronaut.

  • When did Scott veer off of the extraordinary and into the extraordinary?

  • What are the common themes of what it takes to become a successful astronaut?

    • You have to stand out on paper to start. You have to have something unique.

  • Technical qualification is just table stakes, you have to have the emotional intelligence, have trustworthiness

  • Is mental toughness innate or is it trained?

  • Hiding from your mistakes can be "just as deadly" as not being technically qualified

  • IT's really important to know as much as you can of what you're trying to do

  • The military concept of compartmentalization and how it's vital to dealing with difficult and tough situations.

  • How do you deal with fear in some of the highest stakes situations imaginable?

  • Failure is important. Really successful people often set their bar above what they're capable of doing.

  • Things never stay the same, you are either getting better or you're getting worse. To keep things from getting worse, you have to make small improvements

  • "The smartest person on the mission" and how diversity can be a force multiplier

  • NASA's "Sports Bar" Room and how NASA learned to avoid groupthink

  • "None of us are a dumb as all of us"

  • "When in doubt, do nothing"

  • Homework: Reach out if you need help. There's no stigma around needing help. At NASA, you don't have a choice but to take your mental health very seriously.

Thank you so much for listening!

Please SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE US A REVIEW on iTunes! (Click here for instructions on how to do that).

Canva Pro is the easy-to-use design platform that has everything you need to design like a pro. Whether you’re a professional designer or just getting started, Canva Pro can help boost you and your team’s productivity and creativity. It’s a quick, easy, and affordable way to design whatever you need.

Design like a pro with Canva Pro! Right now, you can get a FREE 45-day extended trial when you use my promo code! Just go to canva.me/success to get your FREE 45-day extended trial.

What interferes with your happiness?

I know better than most that your thoughts and feelings aren't always true and can hold you bak from achieving your goals.

That's why I'm excited to share with you our sponsor, BetterHelp. BetterHelp is offering 10% your first month when you go to www.betterhelp.com/sos and sign up.

BetterHelp isn't self-help, it's professional counseling. You'll get timeline and thoughtful responses from counselors and can schedule weekly video or phone sessions. All without ever having to enter a waiting room.

BetterHelp can provide you with professional counselors who are specialized in depression, anxiety, stress, relationships, grief, and much more.

Try them today and get 10% off your first month by going to www.betterhelp.com/sos!

This episode of The Science of Success is brought to you by our partners at LinkedIn Jobs! 

To post a healthcare or essential services job for FREE, or if you're in another industry and having hiring needs, visit www.linkedin.com/success and get started today!

Now more than ever, we need people with the right skills to support our communities, especially the frontline workers who provide resources and care for those most in need. 

To help, LinkedIn is offering free job posts for healthcare and essential service organizations that need to quickly fill critical roles with the people who help us all.  

Go to www.linkedin.com/success and learn more today!

Want To Dig In More?! - Here’s The Show Notes, Links, & Research

General

Media

Videos

Books

See this content in the original post

Episode Transcript

[00:00:04] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to the Science of Success; the number one evidence-based growth podcast on the Internet, bringing the world’s top experts right to you. Introducing your hosts, Matt Bodnar and Austin Fabel.

[00:00:19] MB: Welcome to the Science of Success, the number one evidence-based growth podcast on the Internet with more than 5 million downloads and listeners in over a 100 countries.

In this episode, we share the lessons from Astronaut, Scott Kelly's amazing career, from what it takes to become an astronaut to surviving NASA's grueling training, the powerful experience of being in outer space and the lessons you can learn and apply to your life with our guest, the first human to spend a year in space, Commander Scott Kelly.

Are you a fan of the show and have you been enjoying the content that we put together for you? If you have, I would love it if you signed up for our e-mail list. We have some amazing content on there, along with a really great free course that we put a ton of time into called How to Create Time for What Matters Most in Your Life. If that sounds exciting and interesting and you want a bunch of other free goodies and giveaways along with that, just go to successpodcast.com. You can sign up right on the homepage. That’s successpodcast.com. Or if you’re on your phone right now, all you have to do is text the word smarter, that’s S-M-A-R-T-E-R to the number 44-222.

In our previous episode, we discussed how to identify and defeat the stories that hold you back, how to use your complaints as a compass to improve your life, powerful methods for creating permanent habit change and we unmasked the number one reason why you resist making big changes in your life with our previous guest, Jen Sincero.

Scott Kelly is an American engineer, retired astronaut, author and naval aviator. He's best known for spending a record-breaking year in space. He is a former US Navy fighter pilot, test pilot and veteran for spaceflights. Kelly commanded the Space Shuttle Endeavour in 2007, and twice commanded the International Space Station. He has documented his experiences in both films and his books, including Endurance: A Year in Space, a Lifetime of Discovery, My Journey to the Stars, and most recently, his children's book, Goodnight, Astronaut. Scott.

[00:02:29] MB: Scott, welcome to the Science of Success.

[00:02:31] SK: Thanks for having me, Matt. Look forward to it.

[00:02:33] MB: Well, we're super excited to have you on the show today. As I was telling you a little bit in the pre-show, I'm a big fan of space and astronauts and science and all of that. It's an honor to really to have you on the show.

[00:02:43] SK: I'm a fan of science too. Great to be here.

[00:02:46] MB: Excellent. Well, I'd love to start out with, and I'm sure you get asked this a lot, but I mean, to be an astronaut is such a monumental achievement and in the pool of people that want to get to that place and people that actually make it through. I think you've once described yourself as a below average guy, performing at an above average level. I'd really be curious, in that journey to becoming an astronaut, how and where did you step off the path of an ordinary life and veer into a trajectory towards the extraordinary?

[00:03:17] SK: Well, I'm a typical person that gets this job, because my whole education when I was a kid growing up, up until my first year of college, I wasn't a very good student. Couldn't pay attention. I was the kid that sat in the back of the room, looking out the window, or looking at the clock, just trying to make it go faster, to get out of there. I wanted to do well, but it was impossible. I could not pay attention. Probably have ADD, or ADHD.

For me, it wasn't until I was in college, I'm still struggling that I happen to go into the college bookstore one day to buy gum, or a snack, or something and I just stumbled across Tom Wolfe's book, The Right Stuff, and read it. It inspired me that maybe I could do something greater than I thought was previously possible. if I could become a better student. That was the inspiration, the spark that I needed.

It wasn't easy at first. I brute force my way into figuring out how to study and pay attention. That was the inspiration that I needed. Basically, 18 years later, from the time almost to the day of when I read Tom's book at 18-years-old, I am launching into space for the first time.

[00:04:37] MB: What did that feel like?

[00:04:39] SK: I'm assuming you don't necessarily mean the launch, or maybe the launch itself, but answer for both of them. The trajectory, the path I was on was challenging. There were bumps along the way, but I never gave up. Kept focused, always tried to do my best and know as much about anything I was doing, whether it was learning how to fly a new airplane, or being a test pilot later, learning how to fly the space shuttle prior to going into space.

Yeah, it was a certainly, a serious 18 years of trying to do well in college, trying to do well in my first jobs in the military, trying to become a better pilot all the time. It culminated with strapping myself into a rocket and launching on a mission to the Hubble Space Telescope when I was, I don't know, I must have been 35-years-old. Fairly young to be doing that, your first flight into space. I didn't really consider it at the time. I was just really focused on what I was doing. In retrospect, it was a pretty miraculous comeback, I think.

[00:05:51] MB: Did you always know that you wanted to be an astronaut? Or was that a path that you wound your way to?

[00:05:59] SK: I never really considered it. I mean, I certainly as a kid was interested in the space program, because it was on TV, as was I dream of genie. Space was something that seemed like it was fun and exciting, and a little bit part of my life, but never in a million years, would I have ever thought, not only could I be an astronaut, but I never even considered the fact that I could be a pilot.

I remember, I was in the cub scouts. We used to go on these field trips. I don't know, it must have been, I don't know, probably in the fourth grade or something. Our den mother, her job was she worked at Burger King. We go on this field trip to Burger King and I'm like, “Yeah, I could see myself working here at Burger King someday. This is pretty cool. I could do this.” Then a few weeks later, we go to Newark Airport and we get on an airplane. I don't know. It must have been a 727, probably at the time.

We go into the cockpit. I remember looking at all these switches and circuit breakers and levers and knobs and all these things, I thought to myself, “There is no way I would ever be able to learn how to operate something like this.” I just thought it was impossible. As it turns out, I was wrong.

[00:07:20] MB: There's so many different avenues I want to explore here. When you look at both your own journey into the space program and becoming an astronaut, and the other people that you went into space with and who became astronauts, what were some of the commonalities that you saw are common themes of what enabled somebody to make it in the door and then make it through that process?

[00:07:43] SK: A lot of people, a lot of my colleagues, their story was they saw Neil Armstrong walk on the moon, or the early days of the – late days of the Apollo program, early days of the shuttle program. Then that inspired them enough as little kids to do well in school and always be performing at a very high level and go to a really good college and get a really good job and always be the best of the best. That's not everyone's story, though. I mean, there are certain exceptions.

There's a couple astronauts that were a product of community college at first. There are people, me and my brothers a little bit of more like me, but he figured his whole had to be a good student out when we went into high school, where it took me a few more years. I think what gets people the job is really, they have to certainly have – they have to look good on paper. I've been I've actually been on the selection board and to pick astronauts, so I'm familiar from both sides of this, both sides of the process.

Certainly, you have to be qualified. You have to have a resume that separates you out from your peers that are also applying. Something on there that's unique. I think, what helped my brother and I, is that even though we were test pilots, we both went to a college, and that had – it was a maritime college; two different ones. We had experienced driving ships, which that makes you stand out a little bit amongst other pilots.

There generally has to be something different about your background that helps you get an interview. Then once you get an interview, it's almost like, it's a popularity contest, and that they know you're qualified to do the job, your job experiences prove that. Now, who does the selection board think would be the best people to be their future colleagues? In other words, would you get along with this person in space? Would you enjoy working with them, spending time with them? It's more of a personality thing than it is a technical thing, because you're considered technically qualified when you get the interview. It's a tough job.

I mean, you interview a 120 people, and you have to pick maybe, I don't know, 15 of them. They're all very highly qualified. It's actually a pretty tough process, that sometimes we actually make mistakes. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that were probably more qualified and maybe would have done a better job at being an astronaut than I did.

[00:10:28] MB: In essence, you're saying the technical qualifications are almost the table stakes just to get in the door. From that point, it's much more about and correct me if this is a mischaracterization, but emotional intelligence, bit culture, are they a good fit for the team? Etc.

[00:10:46] SK: Exactly. It's about teamwork. Would you be a good team player? Would you be the type of person that the other astronauts would want to fly in space with? It's assumed that you can do the job, but are you the person that they would want to do the job with?

[00:11:02] MB: What are some of those traits that you would look for from an emotional intelligence standpoint? Maybe that term is too narrow, but what are the leadership traits, or the qualities, the qualitative things beyond the technical expertise that would stand out for you and really be necessary?

[00:11:18] SK: I think before you can be a good leader, you need to be a good follower, to be someone that would be pretty calm under pressure, which that job certainly has times and moments where there's a lot of pressure, to be somebody that gets along well with their colleagues and would be somebody that you think could handle a situation when you're isolated for a really long time with very few people and someone who's very self-sufficient, and doesn't need a lot of direction, like a self-starter, I think, is important. Certainly, someone that can technically do the job, but that's almost a given, like you said, before you even show up for the interview. Then the other thing is, you got to be medically qualified. That knocks a lot of people out.

[00:12:06] MB: You touched on being calm under pressure. Obviously, I mean, if you look across pretty much any endeavor, any field on Earth, I think the mental toughness required to be an astronaut is probably at the pinnacle, if not tied for a few other things at the pinnacle. Do you think that that mental toughness that's required is something that's innate? Or is it something that is trained?

[00:12:29] SK: I don't know. It's probably a little bit of both. I mean, if I think of myself as a young person, I was pretty good at dealing with stressful situations. My parents didn't get along well, and there was a lot of stress in our household over that. I think it prepared me well for dealing in a stressful environment. The other thing that's really important, though, and I didn't really mention it before, is trustworthiness. People that you can trust to do the right thing. People that when they make a mistake, they admit it. They don't make excuses. In spaceflight, that is so, so critical, because if you're the type of person that tries to blame other people for your errors, or tries to hide, or cover things up, that can be just as deadly as not being qualified to do the job. That's another type of person you look for, is someone who's very not only competent, but someone that you can trust.

[00:13:29] MB: That's such a powerful insight. To me, I always love studying fields, like the military, aviation, etc., because in essence, they're crucibles, where the principles of success are forced out, because it's, in many cases, a life and death situation. The notion that you can't hide from making a mistake, you can't make an excuse, you can't try and defend your ego, instead, you really need to own up to it and see your own weaknesses. It's such a critical theme. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your perspective on that.

[00:14:03] SK: Well, certainly having a big ego should almost be a disqualifier for this job, because there's so many things about it that could inflate your ego to where, if you come into the door with an ego and over time, it's just going to get bigger. Unless, you're an egoless person, which I think is also important.

Sometimes, you come across people that they try to make the whole thing about them. It really is, and it's really a team effort, to have understand that you're in a privileged position in this organization, NASA. There's so many people that work their whole lives to make it capable for you to have this privilege of flying in space and perform your job. They're just as important as you are.

[00:14:55] MB: Yeah. That's such a critical insight that it's a much bigger tea and. It's not just about you, and it's not even just about the people that go into space.

[00:15:05] SK: Yes. I mean, it's really about the taxpayers and it's their program, and we're really working for them. I think, sometimes people lose sight of that, unfortunately. Not only at NASA, but I'm saying government-wide.

[00:15:20] MB: Yep. Well, coming back to something you touched on a minute ago, earlier in your career, you were a test pilot, which and this may be my layman's perspective that could be incorrect. I feel like that's one of the most potentially dangerous jobs that you could be in. How did you think about your approach the path of becoming a test pilot?

[00:15:42] SK: It's potentially one of the most dangerous jobs. It depends on what you're testing, what airplane you're flying. Sometimes test pilots test weapons systems. You’re really testing more of a computer, versus the flying qualities and performance of an airplane. In my case, I was where I was stationed, we did flying qualities and performance and carrier suitability, testing, weapons separation testing. A lot of it was fairly high risk.

The way you approach that job is really the way I approached everything, once I figured out how to study and pay attention, and it's just knowing as much as you possibly can about what you're trying to do. This idea of compartmentalization, we often talk about in the military, and it certainly applies at NASA, knowing what are the things you have control over, and what are the most important things at that moment, you need to be focused on and then ignoring everything else, which the stuff that you may not have control over, or the stuff that doesn't matter at that particular time, and being very precise.

Test pilot is a little bit different than the Chuck Yeager test pilot. Chuck Yeager was a great pilot, but he wasn't the test pilot we have today, which is your skills as a pilot are important, but your skills as an engineer, are almost equally as important for you to look at a problem, come up with solutions, test those solutions, write a report about it, being able to explain what's wrong with the airplane, how to fix it. Those are the important skills, I think, to have in that job.

[00:17:24] MB: Tell me more about the concept of compartmentalization.

[00:17:27] SK: Well, as an example on the space shuttle, I launched twice in the front row. I was the pilot of a Hubble mission. In 1999, my second flight, I was the commander. I was sitting in the right seat, my first flights. Second flight, I'm in the left seat as the commander of the mission, launching in the space twice and never really looked out the window one time during launch, which is hard to believe, but – I didn't even think about it, because my job was to monitor the systems and be prepared for dealing with malfunctions and to fly and operate the vehicle. It was not to be looking out the window.

I never looked out the window once. It really means to focus on what you need to be focusing on in that moment, know what that is and putting a 100% of your attention. Now, that doesn't mean you're losing sight of the big picture. I mean, you have to at the same time, consider the big picture of the environment and the situation you're in. There are certain things that in the space shuttle if you throw a switch at the wrong time, or push a button at the wrong time, you can blow the thing up and kill yourself and your crew, if you're not a 100% certain and focused about what you're going to do next.

[00:18:54] MB: Those are some high stakes.

[00:18:55] SK: The highest.

[00:19:00] AF: This week, I'm extremely excited to announce our sponsor for this episode, Canva Pro. Canva Pro is the easy to use design platform that has everything you need to design like a pro. Whether you're a professional designer, or you're just getting started, Canva pro can help you boost you and your team's productivity and creativity. It's quick, easy and an affordable way to design whatever you need.

No matter what you're creating and sharing, Canva Pro has everything you need in one place, including a collection of over 75 million premium photos, videos, audio, and graphics. Plus, Canva Pro comes with time saving tools to simplify and speed up the creative process. Canva is awesome and I've used it for many, many things in the past.

It's super simple. They have templates for everything you can imagine from presentations, to videos, to Instagram posts. The last thing that I personally use Canva for was to make a new logo for my wife's business. There's no idea too big or too small for Canva Pro. Really, you can use it for whatever you want. Whether you're a creator, whether you're a student, an entrepreneur, it's a great way to build incredible content and a quick, easy and affordable way.

Right now, you can design like a pro with Canva Pro. Our listeners can get a free 45-day extended trial when you use our promo code. Just go to canva.me/success to get your free 45-day extended trial. That's canva.me/success. C-A-N-V-A.M-E/success for your 45-day extended trial. Start today.

[00:20:49] MB: You've touched on this a little bit earlier, but how do you approach fear in those kinds of situations? What is your perspective on fear throughout your career?

[00:21:00] SK: Well, I think fear is a natural emotion. I think it's important. I think, if we didn't have fear as a species, we probably wouldn't evolve to where we are today. Because we would have gotten, eaten by the saber-toothed tiger, because we weren't scared of them. I think fear is an important thing. It can focus your attention. It's also something you need to be able to control. I've had a lot of situations in my professional career, where you're scared landing on the ship at night is, not only is it scary, but it's half the time, doing it in the F-14 Tomcat at night on a pitching deck is terrifying.

Sometimes, if the moon's out, if the weather's calm, it's just scary. Yeah, during the day, you do it enough, it becomes fun, but at night is never fun, at least for me. Fear is something that you need to live with. It's something that you shouldn't be ashamed of having, to be scared. It's also something you need to control. I think it also focuses your attention, what's important, right? If you're in a situation where you're scared, because the saber-toothed tiger is going to eat you, that's the most important thing at that moment.

[00:22:16] MB: Yeah, that's a really good insight. Are there any particular things that you did for yourself, or you saw others do in some of these incredibly high stakes situations to cultivate a better relationship with fear?

[00:22:32] SK: Nothing I can really think of. I don't know. Maybe some people meditate, or do yoga. I never did that for helping me get past anything I was ever scared about. I would just try to rationalize it. The first time you're getting ready to launch in the space shuttle, the first time especially, you think, “This is quite possibly the last thing I ever do.” You rationalize doing it by the fact that it's important. Hopefully, you think it's important. It's something that you've weighed the risk in your mind and maybe even beyond that, you look at the risk of certain failures and the probability of those things happening.

Then eventually, you come to terms with the fact that, “Okay, I've been trying to do this my whole life. I'm willing to accept this risk and knock on wood, hopefully it goes well.” Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

[00:23:30] MB: How do you think about failure differently than most people would?

[00:23:34] SK: Well, I think failure is part of life. If we were so scared of failure that we would never try, then we wouldn't achieve the things that we have achieved in as a species. Imagine, the Wright brothers, if they were scared of not being able to fly that airplane the first time and we're worried they were going to fail, we wouldn't have the – if everyone was like that, we would still be tied to the earth.

I think failure is important. People that are really successful in life, they sometimes set their bar above what they think they're capable of doing. When I was learning to fly the F-14, I couldn't land on the ship very well at first. I failed the first time and they sent me home. During the daytime, I even had problems, which is not too uncommon, but it's never good to fail.

I got back to shore, and the squatter and CEO said, “Well, you pretty much scared the crap out of those instructors. We're not sure we're going to let you do this again.” They said, “Well, if you want, you can go fly a big airplane, like an airliner that doesn't land on the ship. Maybe that'd be easier for you. Probably would be.” I thought, “Well, I don't want to do that. Maybe I won't be able to land on the ship, if given a second time, a second chance.” I thought, “If I'm going to fail at something, I might as well fail at something I think I can't do. Rather than something that's easier.”

At least then, I'll know for the rest of my life, at least I tried and failed, rather than never try it all. I forget who said that. I think it's a really important trait that people have that are very successful, where they're willing to make mistakes and fail and try again. If you look at successful entrepreneurs in our society, many of them had failed many, many times before they finally hit the right set of circumstances and had some success. I think, failure is something that is good for people. It's good for our society. No one wants to fail. If you never failed at anything, you're probably not setting your bar high enough.

[00:25:50] MB: Yeah, that's a great perspective. I love tying that back into the story about landing on the aircraft carrier. I can't even imagine what that experience is like.

[00:26:00] SK: It's horrible.

[00:26:01] MB: How did you get another shot at doing that?

[00:26:04] SK: Well, they gave me the option and I said, “Well, I didn't really consider to fly in the big airplane much, because it's not what I wanted to do.” I was told, “Hey, you're going to have to do not just pass. You're going to have to do well enough that we know you're not going to be a danger to yourself, or your RIO in the back, or people on the flight deck.” The way I was able to get past it, actually, the Navy gave me this new RIO, an instructor. Def-14 doesn't have a controls in the backseat. There's never been a Tomcat with a second set of controls. When you're the pilot flying the airplane, it's all you.

The only thing that guy that you can do in the back really to help you is talk to you. I guess, if things got really bad, they can eject. Other than that, they don't really have control of the weapon system, but not flying the airplane. They teamed me up with this guy that was really good at helping guys that had trouble. We practiced on land. Eventually, he said to me, he goes, “You can fly this airplane okay. what I notice about you is that you're too comfortable when things are going along all right. You're too comfortable with the status quo, how things are.” Because you're not making very, very small positive corrections all the time, things never stay the same. They either get better, or they get worse.

As long as you're trying to make them a little bit better, you're more likely to have your situation not deteriorate to where you're flying in the – landing and the hook hitting the back of the ship again and potentially crashing. I took that lesson with me throughout my career and even in my personal life. That is, things never stay the same. We do not live in a static world. You're either going to improve and get better, whether it's a business, whether it's flying an airplane on a ship, the space shuttle, the space station, or you're going to get worse. To keep things from getting worse, you got to always be trying to make at least small improvements. That helped me, that philosophy.

[00:28:15] MB: That's a great philosophy. That anecdote reminds me a little bit of the theme that you have spoken about, and it's in your Go For Launch! program, the idea of not being, or I guess, the concept you have of the smartest person on the mission. Tell me a little bit about that.

[00:28:30] SK: Yeah. Well sometimes, I've seen people think that they are the smartest person in the room. Maybe that's sometimes the case, but usually, it's not. I think, recognizing that you don't know everything and why teamwork is so important is because people are good at different things, they have different perspectives and one person is not going to be able to do everything well. Knowing who has what skills, who's the smartest person that this or that is really a force multiplier in doing things that are challenging and difficult.

I would always try to seek out different opinions. After the Challenger accident, which was really a leadership management, leadership failure. NASA really reflected very much internally on our culture at NASA. One thing we learned was that we didn't give everyone the appropriate attention and voice that they should have had. Oftentimes, you could also get into the situation of groupthink, where if the smartest person thinks we should do something one way, then they drag along a lot of people with them, because those people think, “Well, that guy thinks we should do this this way, because he's the smartest person and let's just go along like sheep.”

We have this room at NASA now that we call the sports bar. It's not a bar. It's not about sports, but there's a lot of TVs in there and it's a mission management team room that has – where a lot of the really important decisions are made. There's a poster on the wall. The poster says, I think it's the greatest thing. It says, “None of us are as dumb as all of us.” Heeding that, sometimes you get this group thing together and you go off in the wrong direction. Now, certainly the corollary is also applies, is that none of us is smart as all of us, either. It's just a matter of figuring that out. Then we made some course corrections after Challenger and basically, made the same mistakes all over again with Columbia.

[00:30:47] MB: It's amazing how, even when you're aware of the perils of group think, how easy it is to fall into the trap and let those biases impact your decision-making.

[00:30:59] SK: Yeah. I mean, it happens. Happens a lot.

[00:31:02] MB: What are some of the other decision-making lessons that you learned at NASA and while you were thinking through some of those challenges?

[00:31:12] SK: For me, I've often been asked about decision-making style, leadership style. I found that it depends on the situation. Sometimes, as let's say, I'm the commander of the space shuttle, or the space station, I would know my crew members pretty well and know that, “Hey, that person is the expert on this more than I am. Hey, what do you think we should do? You decide. I'm going to just let you make the decision, because you're smarter about this than I am.”

Sometimes democracy is good, depending on this situation, what you're trying to decide. “Hey, let's just vote.” Majority wins, right? Oftentimes, you get opinions as the leader, other people's opinions and you make the decision. For me, it was basically gathering as much information as possible. Depending on the situation. I mean, sometimes you have to make a decision in an instant, like shutting down the main engines of the space shuttle with a certain failure. You have to decide yoursel, and make a decision right now that has the ultimate of consequences.

Then, other things can often wait. There's time to be the dictator, the authoritarian, and there's times when you can wait. I also have this philosophy that I use the NASA and I even use it throughout my personal life. It is when in doubt, do nothing, unless you have no choice. If there's any doubt, you’re probably better off not taking action.

[00:32:50] MB: Tell me more about that. That's really interesting.

[00:32:53] SK: Well, rather than making the wrong decision, it's better to just leave things as they are, I found. Certainly, there are times when you have no choice. There's a fire on the space station. What do we do? I'm not sure. Do we do this, or do we do that? The do nothing option is really not a good one. There are times when that doesn't apply.

[00:33:19] MB: What was the one of the scariest moments for you, when you were either in space or launching into space?

[00:33:26] SK: I would say, the worst personal upsetting scary, I don't know how you want to call it was for me, was January 2011. I was on the space station, halfway through my six-month flight. My sister in law, Gabby Giffords, my brother's wife was shot in Tucson, Arizona. I was actually even told that she had passed away. She died. She didn't, thank God. Yeah, that was pretty scary, challenging, hard to deal with, where you have this incredible – this horrific family tragedy and you can't be there.

I guess, other scary things, I don't know. First time you launch into space. Spacewalks are a little weird. I wouldn't say they're scary, but you're definitely – you have a heightened sense that this is not a natural environment to be working in when you are in a vacuum and you can feel how hot the sun is, when it's shining on you, or you put your hand on a handrail that is 270 degrees, you can feel that heat come through the glove. Or likewise, the sun goes down, and a few seconds later, now it's minus 270 degrees, and you're in a vacuum. You're flying around the Earth at 17,500 miles an hour. You're looking around and you see all these little holes in metal handrails that where they've been hit by micrometeorite debris and you think, “Wow. If one of those things hit my visor right now, I'd be in big trouble.” I'd be that guy on the Gravity movie that basically had his head – a giant hole torn through his head. It's an unnatural thing. I wouldn't say. It's almost like, it's so challenging and difficult and requires so much focus that you really don't even have the mental capacity to be scared.

[00:35:26] MB: That totally makes sense.

[00:35:31] AF: This episode of the Science of Success is brought to you by our partners at BetterHelp. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P. You'll get 10% off your first month by going to BetterHelp. Once again, that's betterhelp.com/sos today for 10% off your first month.

Let me ask you, what interferes with your happiness? Is there something preventing you from achieving your goals? I know there have been plenty, plenty of times, getting too far into my own head has gotten in my way. Limiting beliefs, thoughts of doubt, it can all build up inside you and become paralyzing, or cause counterproductive behaviors to form. BetterHelp will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist.

You'll get timely and thoughtful responses, plus you can schedule weekly video, or phone sessions all without dealing with one of my least favorite things ever, the waiting room. It's effective and more affordable than traditional online counseling and financial aid is available. Licensed professionals are on-staff, who specialize in things like depression, stress, anxiety, relationships, trauma and even more. Plus, everything you share is completely confidential.

In fact, so many people have been using BetterHelp, they are recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states right now. If you want to start living a happier life today, as a listener, you'll get 10% off your first month by visiting betterhelp.com/sos. Join over 1 million people taking charge of their mental health. Again, that's betterhelp.com/sos for 10% off your first month today.

[00:37:21] MB: What was that and this is maybe less directly relevant to the spacewalk itself. I've always read about that experience of the first time you see Earth from space, the pale blue dot. We're all this frail ecosystem all floating out there all by ourselves. What was that experience like?

[00:37:44] SK: Well, it's definitely an awe-inspiring thing. On my first flight, like I said, I didn't really look out the window. It wasn't until we got into space that about 20 minutes later, I just happen to glance outside. I was like, “Whoa, what is that?” I said to the commander. He said, “The hell is that?” He said, “Well, that's the sunrise.” I was like, “Wow.” As the sun came up, I just saw how brilliantly blue our planet Earth is. It's almost like, someone took the most brilliant blue paint and just painted it on a mirror right in front of my eyes. I don't know why people call it the pale blue dot, though, because it's not pale to me. It's the most brilliant blue you've ever seen. I could see they can call it the brilliant blue dot. It's definitely blue. There’s lot of water out there. I wonder why they didn't call it – instead of calling it the planet Earth, which means dirt to me, they should have called it planet water instead. I think that'd be better name.

[00:38:42] MB: Yeah, that's a good insight. We should be planet water. We’re made mostly of water. Pretty important.

[00:38:48] SK: Yeah. Much more important than dirt.

[00:38:52] MB: Interesting. Well, I think the pale blue dot comes from the old Carl Sagan book, that now they had the picture of a one-pixel blue Earth taken from one of the rings of, or one of the moons of Saturn or something. It was this tiny little thing that you can barely see.

[00:39:08] SK: Ah. It was more of a function of the camera, the technology of the time.

[00:39:13] MB: Yeah, exactly. It was from a crazy distance as well. Yeah. I mean, that's so cool. That's an experience I would like to have. Hopefully, commercial spaceflight can get there at some point.

[00:39:25] SK: Yeah. Right. SpaceX is signing people up.

[00:39:30] MB: That's right.

[00:39:31] SK: That's great. I mean, you might not be able to afford it now, but enough people do it and the price will come down.

[00:39:37] MB: Yeah. I'm hoping in 20 or 30 years, it'll be reasonably feasible to do. Earlier, you touched on a couple different times, actually, the theme of isolation. I mean, your biggest claim to fame, I think, is that you spent a year in space. How did you deal with that isolation? What are some of the ways that you coped with it?

[00:40:00] SK: I flew this six-month mission first, between 2010 and 2011. Generally, the last third of a flight that, people start to feel the anxiety of being in this isolated life, with a situation where you don't have as much control over your schedule, you don't have the ability to go outside. You feel the anxiety building and the walls closing in a little bit. When the idea came up about flying in space for a year for an astronaut, and also a cosmonaut, I was not initially that interested in it. Eventually, like many things, you get further from something that some negative aspects to it, you remember the good part and less the hard and challenging things.

I did want to fly in space again. I wanted it to be challenging, I wanted it to be different. Eventually, I warmed up to the idea that what would make this more challenging than the thing that was the hardest, which was being in space for a long time, and now it's going to be more than twice as long. Eventually, I thought, put my name in the hat for this. I did it with a lot of thought. I wanted to get to the end of the flight, with as much energy and enthusiasm as I had in the beginning. During the course of the mission, we had three different flight directors, and I wanted the guy that I had in the beginning, the mission control flight director, when he talked to the woman that was the last flight director I had, I wanted them to think that they had the same person on board.

The way I was able to do that, and get to that situation where I think I did, you'd have to ask them, but is that was about pacing myself, it was about having a schedule that balanced work and time for exercise and time to connect with my friends and family on the ground, balanced with hobbies. I made sure that as much as I possibly could, that the weekends were different than the weekdays. I didn't overwork myself on the weekend. Some astronauts can do that, because it's a unique experience, but I didn't think I could sustain that for a year. I found that having something to look forward to, that was only five days away, was much better for my mental state than thinking, “I'm just going to look to the end of this mission that in the beginning, was a year from the start.” I was so far away, I didn't feel I could even see the end of it from the beginning. I tried to think in very small chunks of time.

Mostly, the fact that it was part of my job to be there for a long time, it was part of my mission made it easier. I think in this situation we're living in now with this pandemic, if everyone on the planet consider that, “Hey, this is my job, that has an impact, not only on me and my personal health, but also on my family, my friends, and every other human, then I think it would make people be able to deal with this new reality we have easier.”

Now unfortunately, if people would just wear a mask and wash their hands and stay away from each other for a few weeks, this would be all over. It's shocking that we have people that just don't care, or they don't believe it's real, even though I have. I know a bunch of people that have died, that they wouldn't have died otherwise. It's really a shame that you have people out there that don't believe in science, they don't listen to the experts. One thing I learned at NASA is that everything we did was not rocket science. When it was rocket science, you need to get your information from the rocket scientist, not your buddy Joe on Facebook that claims to know what he's talking about. Trusted sources of information, experts, in government, media, whatever, the right people, not the wrong people that don't know what the hell they're talking about.

[00:44:16] MB: Yeah, that's such an important insight. I mean, one of the fundamental pillars of why we have this podcast is to try to teach people how to think and teach people how to rationally evaluate science, evidence, data, and make better decisions for their lives. I totally agree with that perspective. I think it's really important. On a slightly lighter note, I want to come back to something you touched on a minute ago, which is what would you do for fun on “weekends” in space?

[00:44:44] SK: You don't have the whole weekend. You generally get one day off. One day is devoted to cleaning the place. Bacteria and viruses grow in space faster, for some reason. We made sure we wipe down every surface that you put your hands on during the week, and something that you have to do here during the pandemic a little bit too. It's also important. In the spare time that you do have, I would read, I would write, I would watch TV shows, or movies. I just do little projects that aren't real science, but something.

There's a video of me playing with a little ball of water with some dye in it and throwing an Alka Seltzer in it and it looks like a planet is being formed. Those little things that you can then take with you, like wearing a gorilla suit and chasing around one of your crew members, those things. Also looking out the window, taking a lot of pictures of the earth. Just hanging out, chatting with your crewmates. Similar to what I do here at home, minus the gorilla suit.

[00:45:56] MB: Fair enough. I was just curious, because it sounded really interesting. I know your newest work is actually a children's book. What inspired you to write that?

[00:46:05] SK: Here's my new book, Goodnight, Astronaut. The inspiration was I wanted to write another kids book. Kids’ books are fun to write. The books that have a lot of words are a lot harder.

[00:46:18] MB: Fair enough.

[00:46:19] SK: One of the hardest things I've ever done. This is not as hard. It’s certainly a lot more fun. I was inspired by a book, The Right Stuff. I hope my autobiography memoir, inspires other kids like The Right Stuff inspired me. I also thought, having a book that could inspire some smaller kids that they can have big dreams and achieve them. The way I did it is I structured it around going to sleep as a bedtime story. Starting off when I was a kid and all the different places throughout my life that I've had the opportunity to sleep in that were different, like a submarine, or a ship, or an airplane, or a space station, or a space shuttle, those things. I came out on February 2nd and got some great illustrations by this young lady who is in her early 20s, lives in England. Izzy Burton. I think people will enjoy it.

[00:47:20] MB: Well, as the father of a three-year-old, I'm excited to check that out and add that to our bedtime stories for sure.

[00:47:27] SK: Yeah. I mean, what better bedtime story than a story about going to sleep?

[00:47:33] MB: Hey, I couldn't agree more. Scott, for somebody who's listened to this conversation and wants to put into practice one of the themes, or ideas that we talked about, what would one action step be for them that you would give them to take action in some way?

[00:47:50] SK: There's a lot of uncertainty in this world today, a lot of challenges, a lot of confusion with the economy, with the pandemic. Some people have it so hard. I mean, so much harder than me. I feel so fortunate that the pandemic hadn't hit me too personally. The economy, the downturn and the economy hasn't hit me too personally. One thing I'd like to leave, a thought I'd like to leave with people that are just having some really tough times, is reach out if you need help. There's no stigma around mental health treatment.

I know, we didn't talk about this, but I think it's an important message that people should have. That is, we're very willing to go to the doctor when we're physically sick. When it's a psychological problem, people aren't. At NASA, we didn't have a choice. I had to talk to two psychiatrists and two psychologists every two weeks for an entire year. In space, it was part of my job. Actually, I grown to enjoy it, actually. I found it helpful. I know people and especially kids are really struggling now. I just would hope and encourage them to seek help, because the help is out there. It's available. You just have to be willing to go and look for it and ask for it.

[00:49:12] MB: Yeah, such an important message and a great insight and many ways, echoes a lot of what we talked about in terms of mental toughness, and dealing with fear and challenging situations. Your mental health is vital. As you said at NASA, I mean, if you don't take it seriously, it could literally be life and death.

[00:49:29] SK: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:49:32] MB: Scott, for people who want to check out your work, you and the latest book, where can people find you and all of these goodies online?

[00:49:40] SK: Oh, I think anywhere they sell books. Yeah. Not supposed to encourage one particular bookstore. I think, most places that sell books they can find different titles of book with a lot of words, book with a lot of pictures, kids’ books.

[00:50:01] MB: That's a good way to describe them. Well, again, Goodnight, Astronaut just came out. I'm personally definitely going to get a copy. Scott, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your stories and your wisdom.

[00:50:13] SK: Thanks for having me, man. I enjoyed the conversation. Good luck to you. Thanks.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:50:18] MB: Thank you so much for listening to the Science of Success. We created this show to help you our listeners, master evidence-based growth. I love hearing from listeners. If you want to reach out, share your story, or just say hi, shoot me an e-mail. My email is matt@successpodcast.com. That’s M-A-T-T@successpodcast.com. I’d love to hear from you and I read and respond to every single listener e-mail.

I’m going to give you three reasons why you should sign up for our email list today by going to successpodcast.com, signing up right on the homepage. There are some incredible stuff that’s only available to those on the email list, so be sure to sign up, including an exclusive curated weekly e-mail from us called Mindset Monday, which is short, simple, filled with articles, stories, things that we found interesting and fascinating in the world of evidence-based growth in the last week.

Next, you're going to get an exclusive chance to shape the show, including voting on guests, submitting your own personal questions that we’ll ask guests on air and much more. Lastly, you’re going to get a free guide we created based on listener demand, our most popular guide, which is called How to Organize and Remember Everything, you can get it completely for free along with another surprise bonus guide by signing up and joining the e-mail list today. Again, you can do that at successpodcast.com, sign up right at the homepage, or if you're on the go, just text the word SMARTER, S-M-A-R-T-E-R to the number 44-222.

Remember, the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to a friend either live or online. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us an awesome review and subscribe on iTunes, because that helps boost the algorithm, that helps us move up the iTunes rankings and helps more people discover the Science of Success.

Don't forget, if you want to get all the incredible information we talk about in the show, links transcripts, everything we discuss and much more, be sure to check out our show notes. You can get those at successpodcast.com, just hit the show notes button right at the top.

Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next episode of the Science of Success.