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Don't Label Me! The Psychology of Labels with Irshad Manji

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In this episode, we sit down with Irshad Manji and discuss her latest book Don’t Label Me. We dive into how we can avoid making snap judgments about not only people we disagree with but also those we agree with. We use real-world examples to show how you can prevent small cues from making massively problematic assumptions about the world and those around you.

Irshad Manji is an internationally acclaimed educator, author, and speaker. She serves as the Director for Courage, Curiosity, and Character at Let Grow, a national nonprofit that promotes intellectual independence and emotional resilience in young people. Its signature program is Moral Courage College, which has been brought to K-12 audiences and further adapted for universities and businesses. Her latest book, Don't Label Me, is a guide to doing diversity without inflaming the culture wars. Irshad’s two previous books detailed the need for reform within her faith of Islam. Using the Moral Courage Method, she shows how to be disruptive without becoming destructive.

  • Irshad’s incredible background and story. 

  • Irshad’s organization - Let Grow - and her title, Director of Courage, Curiosity, and Character - now that’s a title!

  • Her latest book. 

  • How we can begin to have these conversations about diversity without inflaming the culture wars or causing an argument. 

  • What exactly happens when we label someone? How does this affect how we interact with this person?

  • Where do the labels we assign people come from? Is there someone/something from your past that causes you to feel the same way about certain people?

  • Real-world examples of how our labels can get us into trouble. 

  • Are you labeling people right now and don’t even know it. 

  • Irshad helps Austin point out some of his own biases and assumptions. 

  • Why is it so hard to have political and social conversations with those we don’t perfectly agree with and align with?

  • How to potentially save your relationships with those you may not see 100% eye to eye with. 

  • Much, much more!

  • Be on the lookout for another Irshad interview coming later in 2020!

Thank you so much for listening!

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:04.4] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to the Science of Success, the number one evidence-based growth podcast on the internet, bringing the world's top experts right to you. Introducing your hosts, Matt Bodnar and Austin Fabel. 

[00:00:18] AF: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Science of Success, the number one evidence-based growth podcast on the Internet with over 5 million downloads and listeners, just like you, in over 100 countries. I’m your co-host, Austin Fable.

Today, we've got an absolutely incredible guest, Irshad Manji. We dig into a ton of great information that's particularly relevant to the climate of the world today. Things such as how you can avoid labeling people, what it really means to label someone and the shortcuts your brain may try to take when someone makes a statement that if not avoided, could get you into really big trouble.

Before we dig in, are you enjoying the show and content we put out each week for you? If so, there are two incredibly easy, yet tremendously impactful things you could do for Matt and I. First, leave us a quick five-star review on your podcast listening platform of choice. It helps others like you find the show.

Next, go to our home page at www.successpodcast.com and sign up for our e-mail list today. Our subscribers are the first to know about all the comings and goings of the show, but also you'll have access to exclusive content you won't find anywhere else. Specifically when you sign up, you'll get our free course we spent a ton of time on called aptly, How to Make Time for what Matters Most in Your Life. Are you on the go? Maybe you're working out right now. Well, good for you. Sign up for our e-mail list easily just by texting the word smarter, that's S-M-A-R-T-E-R to the number 44-222 and we'll get you signed up today.

If you haven't already, check out last week's episode with Laura Vanderkam. We get into a ton of things that are super relevant to the COVID world, such as how to get more done when you're working from home, managing your time better and much, much more.

On this episode, we interview an incredible guest, Irshad Manji. Irshad is an internationally acclaimed educator, author and speaker. She serves as the Director of Courage, Curiosity and Character at Let Grow, a national non-profit that promotes intellectual independence and emotional resilience in young people. Super important work. Its signature program is the Moral Courage College, which has been brought to K-12 audiences and further adapted for universities and businesses.

Her latest book, Don't Label Me, is a guide to doing diversity without inflaming the culture wars. Irshad’s two previous books detailed the need for reform within her faith of Islam and using the moral courage method, she shows how to be disruptive without becoming destructive. We had a great conversation and we'll be having her back on the show in short order. Without further ado, here's our interview with Irshad.

[00:03:01] AF: Irshad, welcome to the Science of Success.

[00:03:04] IR: Very happy to be here, Austin. Thanks.

[00:03:06] AF: Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed our conversations pre-recording, so I’m really looking forward to digging in. First of all, for listeners who may not be familiar with you and your work and your background, just tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:03:20] IR: Boy, that's actually a hard one, because I feel I lived many lives in one lifetime. Very quickly, I was born in East Africa in a country called Uganda. My family and I, along with hundreds of thousands of other families of South Asian heritage, so Indian heritage, were booted out by the military dictator Idi Amin. This was my first experience with racism. Now this might sound odd, because Idi Amin in was black and we were brown. Really, can a black guy be racist against brown people?

Well, the truth is anybody can be racist against anybody else. I think that that'll influence some of our later conversation here. He declared Africa belongs to the blacks. Even though my family had been in Africa for more than three generations and had nowhere else to go, the fact that we had brown skin made us unwelcome.

We wound up as refugees in the only country that was willing to accept us at the time and that was Canada. I grew up on the West Coast in Vancouver, attending two kinds of schools, the secular public school of most North American kids. Then on top of that, Austin, every Saturday for several hours at a stretch, the Islamic religious school known as the Madrasa. I began asking some very simple questions, but apparently, they were also inconvenient questions, because they got me booted out at ripe old age of 14.

My mother, God bless her, she's working class. By her own admission, “not educated,” but she really has the smarts of an effective mom. She said to me, “Look, you're a clever girl. I can't tell you what to do now. I want you to think about what your next move will be. You spend all of these hours at the Madrasa every Saturday. Well now, you can't, because you're expelled. What else are you going to do with that time?”

Here's the thing, Austin, because she expressed so much faith in my ability to think for myself, I wanted to live up to that expectation. I did the closest thing to Google that we had at the time. I went to the public library every Saturday and I read everything I could about cultures and religions and belief systems. It was at that time that I discovered something about my own religion of Islam, something positive, that I would have never learned sadly at the religious school itself. That is that Islam has its own tradition of independent thinking and reasoning and debate and dissent and yes, reinterpretation.

When I found that we have this tradition in our faith, I realized that I could be both a questioning Muslim and a faithful Muslim all at the same time. That meant I could integrate these seeming opposite, seeming opposites. By integrating them, I could have integrity. That word has played a huge role in my life, because today as the founder of something called Moral Courage College, I teach people how to have honest, stimulating conversations with those whom they disagree with.

What I’m trying to show and this is all about integrity, is that you can stand your ground and find common ground. In a polarized culture, like ours is today, that idea is almost incomprehensible. People feel that they have to choose between these false opposites, just like I felt I had to choose between being a questioning person of faith and being a devout person of faith.

Well, it turns out that the world is complex, life is deliciously multifaceted and I’m trying to show that you don't have to be at war with people who hold very different convictions than you. You actually can take a position and listen to people with opposite positions grow from it. Even then, still decide that on the whole, you're right, but that doesn't mean that the other person needs to be an object of your hatred, or even your suspicion.

In a nutshell, that's how I got from refugee Muslim girl to founder of Moral Courage College and the author of a book called Don't Label Me, how to do diversity without inflaming the culture wars.

[00:08:26] AF: Such an incredible story. I appreciate you sharing that with us. I mean, literally out of the hundreds and hundreds of guests we've had, I don't think there is a more inspiring and just overall interesting story of overcoming everything that you have. I’m very excited to dig into all of this. I think in some ways, I feel a bit like a kindred spirit hearing your story of being exiled for questioning. A lot of times, I have things that I question about my own religious beliefs and depending on the crowd you're around, it's either very welcomed and explained patiently, or it's, “Get on my page. Or I don't really want to talk to you.”

It also dovetails into the larger theme that we're going to explore here, which is how to have conversations with people that you disagree with. I’m 31 as of this recording. I’m far from super, super experienced, but I do believe one of the best superpowers, if you will, that someone can have is the ability to take on new information and adjust one's viewpoint based on new information. I think too often, we in arguments, or when conversations don't just go happy go lucky and we're not all on the same page, too quickly, we feel as though we almost need to beat somebody like, “At the end of the conversation, if I don't feel I’ve won, then I’m not going to walk away happy.”

[00:09:46] IR: Right. That is a brilliant insight on your part, because the fact is that we are all as human beings, endowed with a brain that is not very intelligent. It's true. There is a primal part of the brain that kicks in whenever we feel in any way, threatened. That part of the brain is the source of what is called the ego.

Now, I’m not here to get self-helpy on anybody. In fact, I’m going to stick to neuroscience. Ego rears its head when we feel that we're in a life and death situation and that's perfectly understandable, because back when our ancestors were hunter-gatherers on the African Savanna, anything that rustled in the bush could spell the end of your life. That part of the brain, the primal part of the brain signaled to you that you'd better at this moment, freeze, flee or fight.

In a case like that, the ego is your best friend. Problem is, the good problem is that in contemporary society, even during a pandemic, the vast majority of the time, we are not in mortal danger. We are not in life and death situations. But the primal part of the brain does not appreciate this. Whenever we are being disagreed with, it can feel like our very existence, or our very humanity is being called into question. That is when this primal part of the brain says, you are in mortal danger, so you better get ready to fight, freeze or flee.

In fact, it's not true. We're not in mortal danger. We are only feeling mere discomfort. We've got to find a way to override the ego, the primal part of the brain in order to tap into the more executive functioning part of the brain, which is the more evolved region of our brain. That is where rather than emotion alone living there, it's in the more evolved part of the brain that reason and emotion can co-exist.

Sometimes, I know this will sound deceptively simple, but I want our listeners to try this. Sometimes, all it takes to buy yourself a couple of seconds in order to tap into the evolved part of the brain and not freak out when you're being disagreed with, all it takes is to take a breath or two; a deep breath. What you do when you go that route is you're actually slow-jamming your brain, Austin. You're decelerating the blood rush in your body. That then allows you to not react.

Instead, you can respond. That word is important, because respond is the root of responsibility. In other words, you can react responsibly, knowing that you are merely uncomfortable, rather than in a life and death situation.

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[00:14:51] AF: That’s such good advice. I think it's something so simple too. Just stop and take a breath or two. Instead, we forget to do that. We get emotional. We let our ego drive our actions and like you said, back thousands of years ago, if it was a cheetah in the brush, it was either freeze, run, or you fight, you get your spear. Nowadays, it might be flipping over your dinner at the table when you're having a conversation with family doesn't go well, or walking out of the room.

I think, even beyond just conversations really at any time, whether it be responding to a text, or an e-mail, I mean, the breath work can really help you stay away from making some possibly damaging and lasting bad decisions.

[00:15:31] IR: There's this fascinating book. It's a slim volume, so very readable, that I myself have been rereading over the years. It's called The Science of Breath. That book shows how neuroscience can in fact, explain why the simple act of breathing leads to so much more calm and constructive dialogue, even when we are in some way, offended, or angry, or hurt.

The simple act of taking in oxygen can mean the difference between ruining a relationship, by saying something that you actually don't mean, or retaining that relationship and still getting your point across. Notice, Austin, that I’m not talking about compromising your point of view. I’m not for a minute, suggesting dilute, where you actually stand. I am saying that there are much more effective ways to get your point across than berating, insulting, mocking, or labeling people as evil, or ignorant.

[00:16:47] AF: That is a great distinction and honestly, a perfect segue to digging into the book. Your latest book, Don't Label Me, it's described as a guide to doing diversity without inflaming the culture wars, which is great. I mean, I can't think of a more timely message to be getting out there. Let's just start it, okay? Let's say, we're having a conversation and all of a sudden, someone says something or brings something up that we aren't comfortable with, or that we want to engage in. We stop. We take a deep breath. We get the oxygen into our brain. How do we start the conversation that's going to help drive us forward and not be counterproductive?

Never underestimate the power of asking sincere questions. Now, I emphasize first and foremost, the word sincere. Because again, too often, we will lurch for the gotcha question. We'll say things like, “Oh, well what about this? Or what about that?” We'll try and trap the other person in a contradiction. All that does is makes the other person as defensive and possibly, more defensive than you already are.

When we get defensive, when our emotional defenses are up, we are apropos of what you said a few minutes ago, we are consumed with a question in our heads. The question being, “How do I respond? How can I win this debate?” We don't actually wind up listening to the other person. We just wind up fixating on how to walk away from this now argument, feeling good about ourselves. Nothing constructive. Nothing constructive can come of making somebody else defensive.

The first thing that we need to do when we breathe and lower our own emotional defenses is we need to clarify, whether what we just heard really was meant that way. Ask a question like, “Maybe I got this wrong. But I hear you telling me X. Is that what you mean to say?” You can also ensure that again, you're not out to trap the other person by saying something like, “Please know that this is a sincere question. I’m not here to play gotcha. I just want to make sure I understand.”

Then ask more questions, not based on any hidden agenda that you came into the conversation with. For example, “I’m going to crush this loser.” That's a hidden agenda, okay. No. Ask more questions based on what this person is saying in real-time. Let me give you an example of why I emphasize this. In Don't Label Me, I tell the story of a man by the name of Jim, who until recently was my neighbor. For many, many years has been a father figure to me. He is a staunch republican. Let's just put it this way, I’m not.

We have managed to find a way to communicate with one another in which we learn from one another. Every once in a while, Austin, Jim will lapse into treating me as if I am a caricature of a liberal. As I begin speaking and he feels triggered, he will say something to me. He will throw a liberal talking point back into my face and make fun of it, as if that was what I was saying.

I have to at that point, gently grab him by the shoulders and shake him a little bit and say, “Jim, who are you talking to right now? Are you talking to Rachel Maddow, or are you talking to Irshad Manji? Because I’m not her. I don't give a rats you know what, what she's reported to have said on her show last night. Don't treat me like I am a caricature. Treat me like I am who you knolw I am.” He then realizes yes, that he wasn't actually listening to what I was saying.

He was letting himself be set off by my point of view and then inflating that in his own head to what a stereotype of a liberal would be saying to him. You see, we all have the capacity to distort one another through the labels that we assign to one another. We all also are on the receiving end of being labeled by other people.

Regardless of where you fall in that conversation, whether you're doing the labeling, or whether you yourself are being labeled, you've got to be alert to how defensiveness turns us, twists us into something that we never meant to be and makes us say something that we'll regret later on.

Remember not to treat your other that way. When your other is treating you that way, remember to gently point that out. Doesn't mean calling them out, but gently point it out, so that you guys can get back into a mode that I call inquisitive, not inquisitional.

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[00:24:21] AF: It's such a powerful point. Honestly, I’m having a couple of realizations myself here, just even while we're on the line. I do think, there's been times that I having heard you explain it like that, I can see when it's been done to me, but also when I’ve done it where someone may present like you said, a talking point that they think they disagree with at some talking head on television views. When I say something, I immediately get the backlash as if I was on that page.

Same thing, I’ve had conversations with individuals where they'll say something. Instead of inquiring and asking more and clarifying, I immediately assume, “Okay, you must prescribe to ABCD doctrine that I do not agree with.” Then my response is almost tailored with those assumptions that if you said one thing that I might not be totally clear on, I now assume that you must prescribe to all of those and that's how I continue forward. As opposed to knowing like, “Okay, hold on. I know this person. They don't feel like these other four things I may have just assumed. It's a little more nuanced than that. Let me dig in and find more.”

[00:25:28] IR: That word nuance, is exactly the word that I was going to use. The fact is that all of us, all of us, even the so-called straight white guy are multi-faceted, okay. If there's one label, Austin, that I think does capture all sentient beings, and notice I said, sentient beings and not human beings, because non-human animals are also this. It is that we are plurals. We are many things at once. Always, always we are so much more than meets the eye.

This is why labels can be dangerous. It's not just that labels themselves can distort, because they can only capture one slice of who any of us is. It's also the baggage that goes with that label. If you're a let's say, republican and it's factually true, let's say, that you're a republican, well that word then carries all of these connotations that may not actually describe where you stand on any number of issues.

Again, it's the baggage that we have to be aware of. Remember that that is baggage that I didn't have any say in. You didn't have any say in. It's profoundly undemocratic to be stuffing somebody into a label with all of the implications that come with it and then punishing them for either having that label, which by the way, you decided you're going to give them, or punishing them for pushing back on that label, because now they're challenging your point of view.

Do you see how this can become such a hot mess, actually? It all starts because we're not actually listening to where somebody is coming from. We're not actually asking questions, sincere questions about why they believe what they believe. All we're doing is judging, judging on terms that are convenient for us.

[00:27:46] AF: It's almost in some ways, a form of laziness. To give the people labels is easy. To ask inquisitive questions is difficult.

[00:27:53] IR: Well, that's exactly right. Back to the point I made earlier about how our brains are not exactly the intelligent organs that we’re raised to believe, there's a reason actually that they're not in the first instance, all that intelligent. That's because our brains strive to conserve energy.

After all, every one of us is having to navigate innumerable bits and bytes of information, day in and day out. The brain in order not to experience what's called cognitive overload, in other words, in order not to feel overwhelmed and therefore shut down, the brain assigns labels to things. A table is a table, even though quite frankly, a different use of it could mean that it becomes a door. A chair is a chair, although depending on how we lounge in it, it could also be a bed.

The point is that the brain needs to make sense of things right away, so we can get on with functioning. Of course, it will assign labels. Here's the key to remember, people are not things. Things are static. People are not. It is why labels will invariably distort dynamic evolving creatures, sentient beings into something that those labels simply cannot capture on their own.

To be perfectly practical here, I say fine, if you need to label somebody just to begin making sense of them, begin trying to understand them, fine, I get it. That's where your brain goes. Okay, make your labels the starting point, but do not make them your finish lines. If you truly care about that person and that's a big if. I get it. If you truly care about that person in the hopes that they will truly care about you and where you're coming from, then engage.

This leads me, forgive the sermon, this leads me to one final point that I really want to get across to our listeners. Again, it comes back to the Science of Success. There is a non-negotiable ironclad law of human psychology. It is this; if you want to be heard, you must first be willing to hear.

You see, my effort to get people to engage with one another is not about being nice. It's not even about being civil. I’ll be the first person to say that much harm has been committed by the powers that be, in every culture, in the name of civility. No. That's not where I’m coming from. I’m saying that if you want to be successful in communicating your own message, you will much more likely achieve that success if you first listen and only then speak. It's counterintuitive, I know, but everything worthwhile quite frankly, involves paradox and this is one of them.

[00:31:25] AF: I love that point. So powerful. Putting on a masterclass here. I love it. If you want to be heard, you must first be willing to hear. It's just incredibly powerful. I’ve heard versions of that statement, but I’ve never heard it said that way. Quick clarifying point and then I want to move on to a couple of things that they're going to push my boundaries a little bit too. Let's say that we've defaulted, okay, we have to use our labels as a starting point, I think, would it be true to say that if we are going to use labels as a starting point, but not use them just to define people, but rather it's a place to grow and understand from, would we need to adjust our labels from the get-go because I can think of a number of things that I now after having this conversation and speaking to with you for a little while, I would say they're labels, but they're extreme when I think at certain points.

If I’m going to use those as a baseline, I would almost need to tone them down to just say, “Okay. This person is X and that's all,” as a label. Then build on top of that. As opposed to in some conversations, if someone made a certain comment, I might give a label that has again, not necessarily intentionally, but might also have the one, two, three, four, five, six other things attached to it that necessarily might not apply.

[00:32:37] IR: Right. Exactly. I think, there's a very quaint word that what you've just said brings to mind. The word is humility. [Inaudible 00:32:46] that in our era of frankly, arrogance and certitude and instant gratification, the word humility is probably laughable. You'd be surprised. In fact, most of us would be surprised how far a little bit of humility goes these days.

This is why I think that the point about asking questions and sincere questions, rather than making statements right off the bat has so much psychological impact. It literally shows that you are listening and therefore, that you care about the other person. Therefore, that you are in that moment willing to be a student, rather than a teacher.

When that person feels all of those things, which typically they will if you treat them with that humility, they will in turn, feel a moral reciprocity to give you what you just gave them. In the book, I tell a number of stories of how even hardcore people, people quite frankly who would have acknowledged themselves to be racists, have been humbled in a very positive way; have discovered for themselves why their so-called truths were lacking in truth and have since reformed themselves, because of the respect that they were shown.

Now, I want to say one word about the word respect. Because people use that word all the time. We got to be respectful, or respect me. So often, Austin, people assume that I have to agree with you if I’m going to respect you, or you have to agree with me in order for me to feel respect.  But look, respect is not the same thing as agreement. Respect comes from the Latin word re-spectate, which means to look, spectate, which means to look again.

In other words, the first impression that you get from somebody ought not to be the last impression that you leave with. Look again. That means ask questions. That means speak with them. That means engage further and invite them to speak with you. Notice again, nobody is saying therefore, you must change your mind about where you stand. Not at all. I want to emphasize if on balance, you still believe after that engagement that you are in the right, God bless. What that means is you can be more secure in where you're coming from. By engaging with the other, you will have learned about their values. You will have picked up on what's important to them. With that information, you can actually reframe your own position in terms of their values. Therefore, you will finally have a fighting shot at being heard.

Actually, engaging rather than walking away in most cases will provide you with a gift, and it's up to you about whether you choose to accept that gift and use it to be an effective, successful communicator.

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[00:38:31] AF: I love it. So, so many great points. When you talked about being humble and how actually being humble will cause the other person to reciprocate that humbleness and be more open to hearing, it reminded me of something I’ve heard. I think it may have been Vishen Lakhiani on the podcast a number of years ago, but basically saying that forgiving somebody for doing you wrong is actually the most selfish thing you can do. It's a paradox or counter-intuitive and that you would think that forgiving someone is all about the other person, but really, it allows you to let go of the anger that you have there.

In some ways, I see that as being similar to being humble. You might see if you're humbled as that's weakness, or that's you giving ground on your argument. Actually by being humble, you're getting something from the other person in the long run while also building an authentic bridge towards understanding and like you said, ultimately being able to reframe your point, or your position after understanding theirs in a way that might actually get through to them, as opposed to just continuing to butt heads using your own preconceived notions and perceptions.

[00:39:37] IR: Yeah. I’m going to push back a little bit on the analogy between what I just said and the idea of forgiveness. Again, I want our listeners to understand, I am not, not advocating that you forgive people who have hurt you in some way. Look, that's up to you if you decide to forgive them.

I’ll be very upfront. I grew up in a violent household, Austin. My father was a very, very abusive man; physically, emotionally, psychologically. I have not forgiven him. The reason I have not forgiven him and will not forgive him is that he refuses to offer an apology to the person he hurt the most, my mother. Until he has the humility to apologize, he will not get my forgiveness. What he does get from me is an appreciation that he too grew up with violence and that therefore, he did not know any better way to express his own frustrations and anger.

I understand why he was a violent soul. I don't forgive it, but I understand. That understanding has allowed me to move forward. This all raises, by the way, another really interesting point. I keep saying, be sure to ask questions and sincere questions. Well now, I’m going to suggest that we also ask questions of ourselves. When you are entering into a conversation with somebody who profoundly disagrees with you on an issue that you're passionate about, you got to ask yourself, “Why am I entering what I think will be a conversation at all? Is it because ultimately, I want to crush them? Is it because frankly, I want to humiliate them and I think I can?”

If so, and let's be very honest with ourselves here. Remember, you don't have to say this to anybody else, but be honest with yourself. If that's the reason you're even engaging with them, then all you're in it for is yourself. That profoundly selfish. That feel-good moment, that spurt of dopamine that you're going to get from the primal part of your brain when you think that you've just slam-dunked them, that's going to last, I don't know, maybe two or three seconds, but the potential harm, the fallout from that behavior could last a lot longer.

On the other hand, if you can honestly say to yourself, “I’m entering this conversation, because I think it can be a conversation. It doesn't have to become a debate. I’m going to test myself. I’m going to put myself in the hot seat and see if I can pick up slivers of this person's backstory. I’m going to challenge myself to create a whole new way of explaining my position, a way that they've never heard before, that they'll probably be surprised by and that'll be interesting to see how they respond to that.”

In other words, if you gamify it, doesn't mean playing the other person, but rather making this a bit of an adventure for yourself, that is when experiments and the discoveries that come from experiments arise. That's when it becomes really fun. Let's be clear about what our intentions are, because the process truly is the product. If you're in it with bad motives, the outcome will likely be lousy. If you go into it with at the very least, benign and hopefully even constructive motives, your jaw will drop at what is possible.

[00:43:49] AF: The bridges that can be built, as long as you approach it the right way. I think everyone's been guilty of it. I’m thinking here to a conversation I’ve had in the past week, where I can definitely say my goal was not necessarily to come at it from understanding, but not to embarrass, but more to win. The conversation did not go anywhere. Fortunately, it's someone I know well enough, where it's not a huge deal, but it's a useless exercise.

[00:44:16] IR: Well, hold on. I’m going to stop you right there, because again, you tell me if I’m just making a bad assumption here, because I’m very willing to be put on my place. When you say, it became a useless exercise, that I think assumes that the outcome of any such engagement has to be that the other person changes their mind. Otherwise, what has really been achieved? Therefore, if nothing that has been achieved, then it's useless. That's what I want to challenge.

You see, I don't think the intention here should ever be to change someone's mind. If you have approached it with enough grace and over the course of several conversations, enough persistence, chances are they will change their mind. Again, that is only a bonus. That's just icing on the cake. What you've actually achieved, even just by engaging with them is that you have signaled to them, “I see you as a fellow human being.” By signaling that to them, you Austin, have humanized yourself to them.

[00:45:36] AF: Yeah, that's such a great point. I appreciate your pushback there. I mean, you're keeping me in check and then I can feel myself ingesting this information and thinking of all the things I definitely need to work on when it comes to how I communicate, especially around some of these topics that might be “more difficult” to discuss.

[00:45:56] IR: Let me just say this much more, because we're giving as you said earlier, something of a master class in communicating across lines of disagreement. Look, I appreciate that what I’m saying takes time. You do have to develop the patience to not blow a fuse when somebody says something that just really rubs you the wrong way. I’m not suggesting that you can do this with everybody. I mean, frankly, there's only 24 hours in a day and some of us more than others, I count myself in this group, need our beauty sleep. We can't do this with every single person.

This is why, maybe I’ll issue a friendly challenge to our listeners. Between now and November 3rd, 2020, identify just one person, just one in your life. It could be a family member. It could be a friend. It could be a co-worker, a spouse, a neighbor, whatever, but one person, whom you know really gets on your nerves because of the position that they take on an issue that you care deeply about. Start a conversation with them about that issue.

Now, if you're thinking, “Why in the hell would I want to bring more stress in an already stressed environment? Why would I want to do that to myself?” Remember, you're not doing it to yourself. You are doing it for yourself, because everything you learn and every lesson from this conversation and from Don't Label Me that you apply to this nascent conversation, will help you when you're negotiating, let's say for a pay raise, when you're trying to talk some sense into your kids on huge matters, such as taking drugs, or the amount of drugs that they take. It might even come in handy in saving your marriage.

I can't tell you how many Facebook posts, tweets, Instagrams, e-mails I’ve received since the book has come out reporting to me the successes that people have had in relationships that have really hit a rut and have now been revived, because they've applied some of these lessons. It's not about torturing yourself. It's really about investing in your ability to grow and to quite frankly, enjoy healthier, happier relationships on the fronts that matter to you.

[00:49:01] AF: Irshad, this has been a great conversation. I love the homework for the audience and you've been very generous with your time, so I want to make sure we don't take too much more of it. I’m curious too. To close out, for listeners who may take your homework to heart and they may be starting these conversations, what's the best way for them to learn more about you, learn more about Don't Label Me, the work you're doing, but also if they wanted to get in touch and share an experience with you, what's the best way they can go about that?

[00:49:27] IR: Fabulous. I have a personal website, irshadmanji.com. I also have a professional website. I’m the founder of something called Moral Courage College, which teaches people around the world how to do the right thing in the face of their fears. On a polarized culture like ours, one of the scariest things to do is indeed, to speak with people who you  know you're going to have a hard time understanding, or agreeing with.

If you're interested, therefore in not just learning how to do that, but here's a thought, even becoming what we call a moral courage mentor, in becoming certified to teach this on your own and use these lessons to resolve conflicts in your own families, or communities, churches, companies, especially in the post-George Floyd moment, where emotions are running very, very high and demands are being made on all kinds of fronts, come to moralcourage.com and hit in the top navigation bar ‘Learn’. You will read all about Moral Courage College, our philosophy, our methodology and not just what we can do for schools and businesses and communities, but also how you can be part of bringing this methodology, the Moral Courage Method to places that matter to you.

[00:51:04] AF: Irshad, thank you so much for the time and thank you for coming on the show. I’d love to do it again sometime. We didn't even get to half my questions, just because the conversation kept going and we were having such a great time. We'd love to do it again. We'll definitely include all of those resources and links in our show notes. Thank you so much for the time. I hope we can connect again soon.

[00:51:21] IR: I hope so too, Austin. Be well.

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