The Science of Success Podcast

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The Secret Skill Of Cultivating Happiness with Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar

Lace Gilger
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In this episode, we have one of our all-time favorite guests back on the show, Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar. We dig into how to cultivate more happiness in your life, the habits of the world's happiest people, how we can continue to cultivate relationships during COVID, and more!

Tal Ben-Shahar, the founder of Happiness Studies Academy is an author and lecturer. He taught two of the largest classes in Harvard University’s history. Today, Tal consults and lectures around the world to executives in multi-national corporations, the general public, and at-risk populations. The topics he lectures on include leadership, happiness, education, innovation, ethics, self-esteem, resilience, goal setting, and mindfulness. His books have been translated into more than twenty-five languages, and have appeared on best-sellers lists around the world.

  • How can we become happier in the toughest times of our lives?

  • Why happiness isn't a binary concept and what that means in our journey for happiness. 

  • What it means to "give yourself permission to be human". 

  • The role of social media in the fluctuating happiness we experience in our lives. 

  • What happens if we guard ourselves against our emotions and push forward?

  • How to cultivate meaningful relationships in tough times and virtually. 

  • How gratitude and helping others can benefit you in ways you may have never imagined. 

  • Is happiness relevant?

  • How do we attract more happiness to us and become a magnet for gratitude?

  • The daily routine for optimizing your happiness. 

  • The levels of suffering and what you need to embrace and what you need to ignore. 

  • The difference in finding the meaning in life vs. the meaning of life.

Thank you so much for listening!

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Want To Dig In More?! - Here’s The Show Notes, Links, & Research

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:04.4] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to the Science of Success, the number one evidence-based growth podcast on the internet, bringing the world's top experts right to you. Introducing your hosts, Matt Bodnar and Austin Fabel. 

[00:00:19] AF: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Science of Success, the number one evidence-based growth podcast on the Internet with over 5 million downloads and listeners just like you in over 100 countries. I’m your co-host, Austin Fable, and today we have an absolutely incredible guest who’s been on the show in the past. You know him, you love him, Tal Ben Shahar. 

This week we focus on the topic of happiness and how you can train yourself to live an overall happier life. We dig into the science behind some of the habits and routines that have been proven to improve your overall mood, satisfaction, and help you deal with tough emotions by allowing yourself to be human. 

But before we dig in, are you enjoying the show and the content we put out each week for you? If so, there are two incredibly easy, yet tremendously impactful things you can do for Matt and I. First, leave us a quick five-star review on your podcast listing platform of choice. It helps others like you find the show and learn from all of our incredible guests. Next, go to our homepage at www.successpodcast.com and sign up for our email list today. Our subscribers are the first to know about all the comings and goings of the show, which you also have access to exclusive content you won't find anywhere else. Specifically, when you sign up, you'll get our three-course we spent a ton of time on appropriately named How to Make Time for What Matters Most in Your Life. 

Are you on the go? Maybe working out on a walk outside? Good for you. Sign for our email list easily just by texting the word SMARTER. That's SMARTER to the number 44222 and you’ll be signed up today. If you haven't already, check out last week's from the archives episode with Chris Voss. We dig in to how you can learn to negotiate like a pro and share with you three words you can use in any conversation to pull more information and context out of anyone in any conversation. 

Now, back to this week. On this episode, we interview an incredible guest, Tal Ben Shahar. Tal Ben Shahar is the founder of Happiness Studies Academy. He’s an author and a lecturer. He taught two of the largest classes in Harvard University's history, and today Tal consults and lectures around the world to executives and multinational corporations, the general public, and at risk populations. The topics he lectured on include leadership, happiness, education, innovation, ethics, self-esteem, resilience, goal setting and mindfulness. His books have been translated into more than 25 languages and have appeared on the bestseller lists around the world. 

Now, without further ado, here is our interview with tile Tal. 

[00:02:54] AF: Tal, welcome back to The Science of Success. 

[00:02:56] TBS: Thank you, Austin. Great to be back. 

[00:02:59] AF: So tell us, what have you been up to since you last came on the show? I mean, it was 2016 the last time we had you on, which seems like a lifetime time ago. I can only imagine that your work has become even more popular and sought after, and really more impactful and relevant given the times we’re in in the coronavirus. Is that fair?

[00:03:17] TBS: Yeah. A lot has happened over the last four years, and especially the last four months. Strange times we live in. And many people have been saying to me ever since the COVID, they’ve have said, “Tal, is happiness even relevant today?” One of my friends went as far as saying, “Shouldn't we quarantine happiness until this is all over?” And my answer to that is no, we shouldn't. I think it's more important than ever, because happiness is not just – Or the field of happiness, that it’s not just about helping us in good times. It's also about helping us better deal with the difficulties and hardships. In other words, it's about strengthening our immune system. 

[00:03:58] AF: That’s a really great analogy, especially in the times we find ourselves in. So let me ask you, how do we become happier? How do we find happiness? And does it change when we’re experiencing times like we are now when everyone is stuck in their houses? I know from our last interview, one of the big, big ways to find happiness is through community and especially having deep, meaningful relationships. How do we become happier when we’re being told to quarantine? We’re not really able to go out and be in big groups like we once were. 

[00:04:29] TBS: Yeah. I think one of the most important elements with the first steps would be about managing our expectations. So if my expectation is to be happy all the time or to feel joyful and experience positive high, then I'm setting myself up for failure, for frustration, and for unhappiness. So we need realistic expectations. And that means realizing that there will be ups and downs. Realizing that during difficult times, things are difficult. That we’ll experience in all likelihood more anxiety, and more frustration, and more painful emotions during times when we don't have the opportunity to interact with our friends as we did before when there is more, or there is less certainty in terms of what the future brings, whether it’s health-wise or in terms of the economy. So things are difficult, and the first step is really embracing, accepting the fact that it's difficult. The next step is then doing something about it. But the next step can only come after we embrace, accept. 

[00:05:35] AF: That's interesting too. That kind of ties into how we deal with difficult emotions, right? So it's not about fighting the emotion. It's really about embracing it, which is really you kind of bring that emotion in and you embrace it and then you do something about it. But I was curious, after listing to our last interview too, what does that look like exactly? How do we do something about it? Weather it’d embracing a difficult emotion or finding happiness in these times.

[00:06:01] TBS: So just two things. The first thing is to understand there are two levels of suffering. Two levels of pain. The first level is the one that's natural. We all experience difficult moments of difficult days, and as a result of doing something, or not doing something, or seeing something, experiencing, this is natural, we all go through it. This is the first level. The next level is the level that comes when we reject the first level. 

So let me give you a personal example. Let's say I would say to myself, “Okay, Tal. You shouldn't be anxious during COVID-19, because you're an expert unhappiness. You should be able to deal with it better.” Well, immediately, when I say that's, I increase my levels of suffering. That is the second level. In contrast, if I accept and embrace and say, “Okay, it's part of being human, this pain.” Then I experienced the first level, but I don't build on that I don't create a second level. 

Now how do I accept, embrace the first level? There are a few ways. One is to shed a tear. Crying has been instilled in us, whether through evolution or through our creator in order to help us deal with difficult experiences. So shedding a tear can be helpful. Talking about what we’re going through. That’s one way of what I've come to call the permission to be human. Talking to our best friend about it, or to a therapist, or to a coach, or to our partner, opening up. That’s the second way. The third way, which is very accessible, is writing about it. There's a lot of research coming out at various universities around the world today showing the powerful impact of journaling. So when we journal, when we write down things that hurt us, that we’re struggling with, that in and of itself is first of all acknowledging and embracing what we’re going through. And what it does is it helps us to overcome it. Specific, I’ll just share one study. This was done by Jamie Pennebaker at University of Texas where he got people to write a journal for 20 minutes on four consecutive days about their most traumatic or difficult experiences. So a total of 80 minutes over four days. They could write about the same thing every day or they could write about four different experiences. 

As a result of that journaling exercise, initially, anxiety levels went up. However, within a week, it went back down and went down beyond its original state and lasted even a year later when they measured their levels of anxiety. So airing what we’re going through. Accepting it, whether it's by writing, by talking, or by crying. That's an important way of dealing with hardships.

[00:08:44] AF: It’s a really interesting point thereto how the anxiety initially spiked. It's kind of like your nervous system's initial reaction to writing all this down or talking about it is to fight it. Is to get more anxious and to build a bigger wall. But then, through time and kind of exercising that muscle, you get past that and there's kind of a release that then frees you from this anxiety. 

[00:09:05] TBS: Exactly that. And Jamie Pennebaker, when he first did this study, he wrote about it and said that he was really concerned initially when he saw that spike in anxiety. He wanted to do good. Not to hurt people. However, there is no way around it. We need to go through it in order to overcome it.

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[00:10:55] AF: I'm curious too, just how does one begin this journey? Because, personally, for me, I have a real bad habit of letting things build up, which I guess is me not facing these difficult emotions. If I'm sad about something, if I'm anxious about something, it doesn't affect me at all and no one around me can even tell. No one is coming up to me saying, “Hey, you look sad.” Or, “Hey, you look anxious.” But then after a few months or a few weeks depending on what it is I'm dealing with at that moment, I'll just break down and I’ll cry. Or for example, I was really stressed out about a bunch of things a couple months ago and I was trying not to let it affect me. And then I was working out and all of a sudden had a panic attack and I'm on the floor breathing, right? 

If I want to start accepting these things as they come and having sort of many releases and many acceptance experiences as supposed to letting them build to where it’s something that isn't super detrimental, but it's like a balloon bursting because it’s too filled with water. How do I begin to release the pressure over time and kind of start implementing that?

[00:11:57] TBS: Yeah. So one thing to keep in mind is that it's okay even if we don't release it constantly. So one of the benefits of a panic attack is the body's the mind’s, the heart’s way of saying, “Okay, enough. I'm going to take over for a while, and let's release it.” And that’s a good thing. That means that something is working well now that something is not working well. Having said that, it is possible to institute certain rituals and habits that will help us to release that stress sort of like a valve that you constantly release a little bit of the pressure and that will contribute to our happiness and well-being. 

So what are these things? For example, once a week, or once every other week, just set aside 30 minutes to write a journal. And during that time, write about anything that comes to mind. And very often, that will be an opportunity for a release. Something else, people who have someone to talk to, and they regularly take a timeout or time-in with their partner, or with a friend, or with a therapist and just talk, and just let it out. 

The nice thing about just talking or just writing is that we don't know what we’ll come out. We free associate as Freud urged us to do. And by doing that, each time we’re releasing, thus preventing the ultimate explosion. But even if we do get to the explosion, it's not necessarily a bad thing, usually.

[00:13:20] AF: Yeah. And it's never been too aggressive, I guess. I mean, when I say panic attack, that might even be an overstatement. It was just kind of like a quick heartbeat and it was something that kind of scared me a little. But I do think it's nice and like I think society is told especially man that crying and kind of doing a lot of these things isn't really acceptable or it's not manly enough. But at the same time, it's one of the healthiest things. And I want to explore that too, because I think I say that, I guess, the crying example I think is a little more – It's not masculine to cry. But I do think this idea of accepting that you are human has really become a lot harder for both genders and everyone in kind of the new age of social media where we’re always sharing with each other. We’re sharing our best selves. And I think for everyone, it's getting a lot more difficult to admit your faults. It’s getting a lot more difficult to cry, to talk about struggling, because all we see every day is perfection, which is just a snapshot in time from people's real lives. 

[00:14:19] TBS: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I mean, what people share on social media – And again, they share it because they want others to see it, but they also share it because this is what they want to remember, is when things went well. So you go on social media and you see everyone is having an amazing time. Everyone is in an incredible relationship. Everyone is on this breathtaking vacation. Everyone loves what they do, love their life, everyone except for me. 

And then of course what happens is that I feel down and depressed. However, I don't want to be the only one to not to be doing well. And I also contribute a snapshot of my life that seems perfect. So what I'm doing is I'm contributing to the great deception that is responsible for the great depression. And the question is what do we do about it? 

So what we need is to find an outlet's, an outlet to be around people who care about us, people we care about, where we can be and they can be authentic. Yes, we will feel better when we hear or see that other people are struggling to, and we won't feel better because of schadenfreude because we find pleasure in other people's misery. No. It's because we feel normal when we see other people struggling as we do. We don't feel like we’re a negative exception to the rule.

So sharing with others, having these islands of sanity, this is exactly what those authentic interactions are. Islands of sanity in our life is so very important. And as you say, especially today when social media depicts a distorted view of society. 

[00:16:02] AF: I think it's so important to find those people to speak with. It's interesting. I’ve always had a group of friends that I feel comfortable kind of opening up around. But I think there's also something to be said for being the person that someone else is opening up to. There's a certain happiness factor that comes with knowing that another human being is willing to be themselves around you and to bear their hardships with you. What role does making other people happy or being that person that someone can talk to play in our own happiness?

[00:16:35] TBS: Yeah. This falls under a much broader and very important category of generosity, or giving, or kindness. One of the most powerful ways of increasing our own happiness is contributing to others’ happiness. In fact, over the past few years, there's been an increase in research on giving, on generosity. For example, we know that beyond basic needs, money doesn't really contribute to happiness. Yes, of course, money is important if we are to have enough food and shelter and other basic needs. However, beyond that, money doesn't really contribute to happiness unless we use it wisely. 

And one of the ways of using it wisely is actually helping other people. So giving contributes to happiness, but it's not just money. It's not just material giving. It's also giving of your time or lending an ear. Anne Frank back the 1940s wrote, “You can always, always give something even if it is only kindness.” And giving kindness, of course, contributes to the other's well-being as well as to our own. In other words, it's a win-win. And it’s a win-win-win in fact, because when other people observe kindness, they are more likely to be kind themselves. In other words, it's contagious. 

[00:17:57] AF: Yeah. It’s such a powerful tool. It's no secret when you're kind of somebody when you show generosity, when you show gratitude. You really feel better than you did before. But it's kind of like to use another analogy, it's almost contagious, right? It's like it spreads like. One act of kindness can then birth hundreds.

[00:18:15] TBS: Exactly. And over the past few years, I've been putting a lot of work into the relationship between happiness and morality, because, very often, people, when they hear that there is a field of happiness studies or positive psychology, they would say, “Yeah, this is just the luxury for those who can afford it.” Or they would go even further and say, “Yeah, but what's more important is morality. Being a good person, rather than being a happy person.” And this distinction is unhelpful, unhealthy. Why? Because we have a lot of research showing that if you increase levels of well-being, of happiness, you actually become more moral. Meaning, happy people are more likely to help others. If you increase happiness levels by 3%, 4%, you automatically increase generosity and kindness in that person. And it works both ways as I mentioned earlier, because if you act kindly, you increase happiness. 

So potentially, you can create an upward spiral between being good and being happy, because every time you contribute to other people, you contribute your happiness. When you contribute to your happiness, you're more likely to contribute to other people. So there are two sides of the same coin; happiness and morality, the ethical and the practical.

[00:19:43] AF: This episode of the Science of Success is brought to you by our partners at BetterHelp. That’s BetterHelp. You’ll get 10% off your first month by going to BetterHelp. Once again, that's betterhelp.com/sos today for 10% off your first month. Let me ask you, what interferes with your happiness? Is there something preventing you from achieving your goals? I know there have been plenty, plenty of times. Getting too far into my own head has kind of gotten in my way, limiting beliefs, thoughts of doubt. It can all build up inside you and become paralyzing or cause counterproductive behaviors to form. 

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[00:21:33] AF: Yeah, I love that correlation. I also think it’s important to note too that, as you said, I completely reject the idea that happiness and morality is something for those that can afford it. I mean, if you interact with human beings, whether it’d be virtually or in-person these days, you always have the tools to make someone happier, to express gratitude and to do something for someone else that's going to boost their happiness, and then thus their morality, which if we all behaved that way, we’d be living in a much different society.

[00:22:03] TBS: Oh, big time. One of the stories that really had an impact on me came for my mom. She was in the supermarket, and this supermarket was packed, which she was standing and getting something from one of the counters. And she saw a young woman in her 20s talking to one of the employees in the supermarket and asking questions and visibly making feel good about himself. And then she did the same thing when she saw my mom. She smiled at her and asked, “How are you?” And then standing at the teller, my mom was just behind her. She was just making other people feel good. And my mom said, “I met for 15 minutes. In those 15 minutes, she contributed to so many people's lives who then because of the upward spiral and the win-win nature of kindness will then go do more kind things for others. Who will then hopefully affect others and so on and so on, the butterfly effect. 

And impact of those 15 minutes were remarkable. And ever since I heard the story, and again coupled with all the research in kindness, I've introduced an exercise, which I encourage my students, my kids, myself to do, is take 15 minutes a day where you’re extra kind to other people. 15 minutes. You're always kind, great. But 15 minutes to be extra kind, and listen more intently, or give something to others, or spend a little bit more time, or ask a question, or provide help in some way for 15 minutes. And those 15 minutes, imagine if we all did it, or more of us did it. What an impact that could have on society as a whole?

[00:23:39] AF: Yeah, that's incredible. And it's one of those things too. I recently have been experimenting with something similar to that. But when you really start to pay attention to how kind you want to be, and you can even go over the top. I mean, obviously, we’re not trying to be sarcastic here. But it really makes youth think about what just a small couple of tweaks and how you interact with people, not only does it make the other person feel good, but also – I mean, you mentioned your mom. She noticed this person's behavior. It makes you more likable. People want to come and be around you more. So not only by being kind are you increasing the chances that those you’re kind to are going to be kind to others. But you also increase the chances that that person is going to want to spend more time with you and come back and learn more about you as well. 

[00:24:24] TBS: Yes. It's more likely to be reciprocated. And as a result, you're likely to be kinder and so on and so on. As you’re talking, Austin, I'm thinking about a general principle that we see across the field of happiness studies. And that is of the upward spiral. So for instance, there is this research showing that if you keep a gratitude journal, as Oprah urged us to do, even for 2, 3 minutes a day, that actually makes you happier, physically healthier, kinder, more successful. And many people have asked me, “How is it that in 2, 3 minute intervention of gratitude or whatever – Just suggest, the 15 minutes kindness. How can that make a real difference? We live 24/7. 

And the answer is because each one of these interventions, even the 2 or 3 minute intervention, potentially starts an upward spiral. For example, let's say I do my gratitudes in the morning when I wake up. And as a result of it, I'm feeling a little bit better. And as a result, I'm smiling a little bit more. Now, other people will smile at me if I smiled at them. So they smile at me. I feel even better. And I have a little bit more energy. So I will work better. And consequently, my mood will improve, and I'll have a better interaction with my partner later on during lunch, and on and on. And the thing is that it can often start – This upward spiral can often start with 2 minutes, or with 15 minutes of doing something which is good, good for you, and good for others. 

Unfortunately, the opposite can also be the case. There’s also research showing that if we expose ourselves to negative news in the morning, then that can lead to a downward spiral. So what we need to do is actively introduce short rituals throughout the day that potentially can lift us up. 

[00:26:15] AF: See, that's why I love your work so much. I mean, the idea of the upward spiral, it's so easy and it's something that everyone in the world should hear. And I want to get into that too here in a second, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask. Let’s dig into some of these rituals. What are some of the things that we can do to make sure we’re a part of this upward spiral and not the downward spiral?

[00:26:33] TBS: Yes. So one of them is, again, the gratitude journal. Another one, which this is more recent research, is keeping a journal about things that you're looking forward to. So for example, you wake up in the morning and then you write three things, and you look forward to meeting with a friend, or having lunch, or you’re looking forward to the end of the day. It actually doesn't matter. But three things you're looking forward to. And people who do that on a regular basis are actually not happier. However, they’re less pessimistic. They’re more resilient and less likely to experience sadness throughout the day. So, looking forward, journal. 

Another thinking, regular physical exercise, and not just exercise, simply moving. So this is a research that came out of the University of Cambridge, England, showing that people who move at least every 30 minutes or so are not just healthier. More and more doctors are talking about sitting is the new smoking, because it's that unhealthy. Although, they’re exaggerating, but only a little bit. So it's not just healthy to walk around for our physical well-being. It's also healthy for our mental well-being, psychological well-being. Getting up and taking a few steps every once in a while. 

And then, of course, exercising regularly at least three, four times a week. And by the way, during difficult periods like now, exercising even more than we did before, because anxiety levels are higher. Another thing that can help us enter an upward spiral, and it's a good thing in and of itself, is learning. Again, relatively new research came out showing that curiosity is associated with longevity. In other words, people who ask many questions who learn, who are curious about the world, actually live longer. So it doesn't just contribute to our psychological well-being. Once again, physical well-being is impacted. So, learning, constantly learning and do things. 

And then engaging, having either very long conversations or shorter conversations with other people and having them not while checking our messages at the same time or having something in the background. Real focus, one-on-one conversations. These contribute a great deal to our overall happiness. 

[00:28:54] AF: I can definitely attest to all those, and I'm one of those people where if I don't get at least 30 minutes – And like you said, it doesn't have to be like CrossFit, or long distance running, but even just moving around. It really gets the mind moving, and overall, the day is just better. And one of the things that I’ve been trying to experiment too with my wife is sitting down and just putting the phone away, turning the TV off and just having a conversation. I mean, it's shocking. If you consider the amount of time that you're interacting with someone but you're not fully interacting. And it can end up being like 99% of your life, because, yeah, you're talking and you're interacting, you're watching a TV show. You might – “Oh, hey. By the way, so-and-so did this today.” But it's almost weird too, because if you don't exercise that muscle when you're around someone and you have 100% of their attention, it can almost be intimidating. It can become strange when you actually notice someone is paying attention if you don't exercise that kind of muscle or that sort of conversation interaction. 

[00:29:53] TBS: There are so many benefits to what you just described now beyond the connection that you're making, beyond the fact that this is a place where you can give yourself the permission to be human. Beyond the fact that you are being kind, you're being generous, you’re being thoughtful. And that contributes to well-being. Beyond all that, there is also the element of mindfulness. When people talk about meditation, they usually mean sitting down cross-legged and focusing on the breath, or being in a yoga posture, or something like that. Well, meditation is present moment awareness. In other words, if you are with your partner or friend and you’re being present, that's a form of meditation with all the benefits there off, and there're so many benefits to meditation. 

So on every level, everyone wins when there is a real, intimate, focused interaction. 

[00:30:47] AF: Amen to that. 

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[00:32:43] AF: So I want to dig in. You’ve got a really, really incredible project. You’re working on Happiness Studies Academy. But before we do, there's one last thing I'd like to discuss before we jump into that. You’ve said something in the past, and I saw this on a YouTube video that you’re featured on, and I forget which one. But I’ll link it in the show notes. But you were going through these kind of four ways you can find happiness. And one of them that really struck me was find meaning in your everyday activities. And you went on to sort of describe the difference in the meaning in life versus the meaning of life. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Because I think that subtlety is so missed when people start to look at themselves and their happiness and what life really is to them. 

[00:33:26] TBS: Yes. Good. So this is a very important distinction that was made by Viktor Frankel. He’s the author of the Man's Search for Meaning. Meaning of life is about finding the reason for being in a sense. Some people have it and they know they find it in their religion, or they find it in the place where they're working, or creating sustainability, or ending poverty, the meaning of life. But it's very difficult to find. And even people who do find it, it's not enough to sustain the day-to-day, or it usually is not enough to sustain the day-to-day work of living. And therefore, what we need is not just the meaning of life. We need the meaning in life. And the meaning in life is about identifying small activities, small interactions that are meaningful for us, and we can find it almost anywhere in our lives. 

So an investment banker can find it. A priest can find it. A teacher can find it. A person volunteering in a homeless shelter can find it, because whatever we do, potentially, we’re impacting, influencing other people, the world. And it's almost like we have an inherent meaning finding system that all we need to do is we need to switch it on. And by switching on, I mean, we need to be aware of it, conscious of it. It’s somewhat related to what you were mentioning earlier. Yeah, we can be with someone. We’re watching television at the same time and we’re not really on. We’re not switch on. Or we could be focused on that other person and be with them, the same with meaning. We can lead a life of meaning, sort of. Or we can put our focus into whatever it is that we’re doing and identify the meaningful elements. 

So very often, people in a workplace are asked to write their job description. And what I do with my clients is I ask them to write their calling description. Meaning, what is it about your work? Your day-to-day? Whether you're a banker, whether you’re a teacher, whether you're volunteering, or whether you're a parent. What is it about your day-to-day work that is meaningful to you? Where are you making a difference. What are you doing that is important? And by becoming aware of it, by highlighting it, you're actually finding more meaning in life. It’s very much related also to gratitude. Why do we do the gratitude exercise? It’s to shed a light, to highlight those areas that we can be grateful for that are worth celebrating and appreciating. And by doing that, we benefit. We benefit individually and we benefit as a society if more and more people do it. 

[00:36:06] AF: It's crazy to me. Just hearing you talk. I mean, really, a lot of this can be boiled down. And I don't want oversimplify. So pardon if I am, but it really comes down to just paying attention. A lot of times we don't pay attention to the meaning in what we’re doing. We don't pay attention to our partners or our friends, or our loved ones. And if we just kind of slowed down to really pay attention, a lot of that meaning, a lot of that gratitude, a lot of that connection would find us. 

[00:36:32] TBS: Yeah, it's so much the case. My mentor is Professor Ellen Langer, and Ellen Langer is one of the leading scholars in the world on mindfulness. And what she talks about is that not that traditional mindfulness, again, sitting down and meditating, even though she's obviously not against that. She's talking about mindfulness as, and I quote, “Drawing novel distinctions. Drawing novel distinctions.” 

And if we can go into an interaction with our partner, or we’ve been with for a long time even, and say, “Okay, how can I really be mindful of what they're saying now? Because it's different from anything they have said before, or at least in some ways. Maybe I can discern a different way that they look at me, or that I see them.” Then we’re drawing novel distinctions. Or walking along the same street that I've walked for the past 15 years, what novel distinctions can I draw? Can I identify? In other words, as you say, how can I pay attention to what's going on around me? Because as the saying goes, maybe the same step in the river, but it's never the same river. 

[00:37:40] AF: I love that. That is such a great saying. I've heard something similar about staring into a fire. But it's just so true. Tal, thank you so much for the time, and really for the work you've done. I mean, your entire career, I think it's worth it. Everyone needs to know and everyone needs to pay attention too and learn and study. And so in that vein, I know that you are launching a new class of the Happiness Studies Academy on October 5th. Tell us, what is Happiness Studies Academy? What got you start it? And what kind of tools and content can students expect? I mean, I think it's extremely important. Tell us what you’ve been working on.

[00:38:17] TBS: Yeah. Just a few years ago, actually, around the time when we spoke last, a question came to mind. And the question was how is it that there is a field of study for psychology, which is my field, and geography, and history, and biology, and economics, and you name it, and there is no field of study for happiness? Yes, there is positive psychology, but that's just the psychology of happiness. What about what philosophers like Lao-Tzu and Aristotle had to say about happiness? Or literary geniuses like Marion Evans and Shakespeare had to say about happiness, or theology, or neuroscience. Why isn't there a field, or rather an interdisciplinary field of study that brings together all that so many smart people throughout history had to say about the good life? 

And I resolved then a few years ago to help create a field of happiness studies. And towards that end, we created the Happiness Studies Academy, and right now we’re offering a certificate program, which is a year-long program that brings together what the greatest psychologists had to say, and philosophers, and theologians, and neuroscientists, and economists. And we bring it all together in order to answer two questions. The first question is, “How can I increase my levels of happiness?” The second question, “How can I help others increase their level of happiness?” And it’s relevant whether it's for parents, or coaches, or therapists, or businesspeople, or teachers. And it's relevant, because happiness is important for all these areas for all those fields. 

[00:39:56] AF: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. What comes to mind for me is this would be an incredibly powerful tool for teachers, people especially that are dealing with students. Well, nowadays, given what’s going on in the world. Obviously it's more needed than ever. But I feel like the curriculum that you all run through really should be something taught in schools. But if not in schools as curriculum, almost a prerequisite for those that will be helping mold the minds of the future. 

[00:40:24] TBS: Indeed. And one of the things that we are developing now is a curriculum for schools. So for first grade all the way up to 12th grade, because you're absolutely right. These are important tools. No less important than the 3Rs; reading, writing and arithmetic. These are important tools for students to be exposed to. 

[00:40:42] AF: I couldn't agree more. And it really is something that I think if I had been exposed to this sort of thing when I was in second grade, third grade, I think it would have saved me some painful years. You know what I mean? I learned from the pain, but I think that understanding all of this at an early age really can set the foundation that would help mitigate and cut down some of the medication, the negative thoughts, the things that we kind of expect people to go through in their teenage years. I mean, I have a two-year-old daughter right now and I was having a conversation with my wife about, “Oh! The middle school is tough. It was always tough time for me, like I was dealing with this. I was doing that.” But I think if you give people the equipment and the toolset they need at a young age, you can really circumvent a lot of that. 

[00:41:26] TBS: Yes. And at a young age, it’s easier to give these tools, because their brains are more plastic, more accessible. It's possible at any age, and yet it's easier early on. 

[00:41:38] AF: So tell me real quick before I let you go, you’ve been very generous of your time. But the main elements that make up the Happiness studies Academy, they’re spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional. How do you build these into all the content you create at HAS?

[00:41:54] TBS: Basically, the whole course is built around these five elements, because if you think about it, happiness comprises a spiritual well-being, which is about meaning and presence, and about physical well-being, which is about exercise, and recovery, and nutrition, of course, and intellectual well-being, which is about curiosity and learning, as well as relational well-being, which of course is about relationship with other people as well as with ourselves. And finally, emotional well-being, which is about dealing with painful emotions and cultivating pleasurable ones. And all these elements are interconnected. And when we think about our life as a whole and integrate these five elements into our lives, that's when we are more likely to fulfill our potential for happiness. Not to be happy all the time. That's not possible, but to increase our quota of happiness.

[00:42:44] AF: Well, Tal, thank you so much for your time, and thank you for coming back on the show today. You have an open invitation. Anytime you'd like to come back, just feel free to say the word and we would love to have you on. I think your work is extremely important. And I'm glad that it's getting out there to the masses and especially the young minds of the world through Happiness Studies Academy. I will note that we do have a link to HSA on our show notes and we've also got a promo code for 10% off. So if you do want to check it out, find that in the show notes. 

Tal, before I let you go, I want to give listeners the information, where can they find you? Where can they learn more about you and get involved if they would like?

[00:43:20] TBS: Great. So the Happiness Studies Academy, that's happinessstudies.academy. We have information for all our courses, or individuals, or organizations. If you’re school and interested in this, that would be great too. 

[00:43:34] AF: Well, Tal, thank you so much for coming back on The Science of Success. Let's make it a little bit less than four years between the next time we chat. That’d be great. But you've been so generous with your time, and thank you for all the work that you’ve put out in the world.

[00:43:45] TBS: Great. Thank you, Austin. 

[00:43:48] MB: Thank you so much for listening to the Science of Success. We created this show to help you, our listeners, master evidence-based growth. I love hearing from listeners. If you want to reach out, share your story, or just say hi, shoot me an e-mail. My e-mail is matt@successpodcast.com. That’s M-A-T-T@successpodcast.com. I’d love to hear from you and I read and respond to every single listener email.

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