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Selling Treason: How To Influence Anyone When Your Life Is On The Line with Jason Hanson

Lace Gilger
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In this episode we discuss how to train yourself to think and act like a spy, with lessons from a real world expert. In the game of spycraft, the stakes couldn’t be higher and one mistake may land you dead or in a foreign prison. In that deadly crucible, only the best ideas survive. We crack open the secrets you can use to influence, develop relationships, and create a bridge with anyone you meet with the die hard rules from the world’s top secret agents with our guest Jason R. Hanson.

Jason R. Hanson is a former CIA Officer, New York Times bestselling author and serial entrepreneur. He is the founder and CEO of the survival company, Spy Escape & Evasion which was featured in the 5th season of Shark Tank landing a deal with Daymond John. He is the author of Spy Secrets That Can Save Your Life, Survive Like a Spy, and coming soon Agent of Influence: How to Use Spy Skills to Persuade Anyone, Sell Anything, and Build a Successful Business.

  • If you’re a spy, the stakes are high - if you screw up you may end up dead or in a foreign prison

  • When you’re a spy you’re often alone and you have to figure things out for yourself. Resourcefulness is an essential skill for survival as a spy.

  • How spies “throw people to the wolves” to see how resourceful they truly are

  • How spies use resourcefulness, creativity and problem solving to always find a way to win

  • “Never give up, never take no for an answer, there’s always a way to figure it out."

  • Empathy and emotional intelligence are two cornerstones of the spies toolkit - you can’t be fake.

  • In the CIA - you HAD TO PUT IN THE WORK because if you made a mistake, you might end up dead.

  • Spies have really truly battle tested their concepts in a brutally unforgiving proving ground

  • “Treason is not an easy product to sell” - how do you sell someone on betraying their country?

  • If you want to influence an “asset” - you have to research the “hot button” that is important to them - figure out what matters and frame everything in terms of their top priorities

  • The “SADR” Cycle Spies use to Recruit and develop assets

  • Spotting

    1. Assessing

    2. Developing

    3. Recruiting

  • How do you quickly identify people who can help you succeed?

  • “Tell me the 10 best XYZ people in the world”

    1. “The 10 best Facebook advertising people in the world"

    2. Then —> get a WARM introduction to them from someone

  • How to generate a warm introduction or referral from anyone

  • Become friends with someone they are friends with, and get an introduction from them

    1. Leverage your existing network and relationships to get warm introductions

  • The “Art of Elicitation” - how to question and read people like a spy

  • The “hourglass conversation technique”

  • People typically remember the beginning and end of the conversation, but not the middle

    1. Sandwich the most probing questions int he middle of the conversation

    2. End with generic information “are you gonna watch the ball game?"

  • Flattery works. Period. But you have to be GENUINE about it. And do it in a sincere way.

  • “Die hard rules” for creating a bridge with someone

  • Don’t interrupt

    1. Don’t change the subject

    2. Don’t give advice unless asked for it

    3. Be an extraordinary listener

  • The Law of Reciprocity is HUGE in the spy game.

  • Give people things so that they feel indebted to you

  • In today’s world its a huge strategic advantage to spend your time LISTENING instead of TALKING.

  • Researching someone ahead of time is also a HUGE advantage

  • Recruiting - if you’re not 100% sure the deal is gonna close, don’t go for the sale - do more work on developing the relationship first

  • How do you transfer or terminate a previously important relationship?

  • You need to have kid gloves and be very, very careful

  • Spy skills are just “Enhanced Common Sense” - how do you leverage the basic common sense to improve your effectiveness in communication

  • “Extreme preparation” is the difference between A players and people who won’t be that successful.

  • To be a successful spy you must always be VERY teachable

Thank you so much for listening!

Please SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE US A REVIEW on iTunes! (Click here for instructions on how to do that).

This week's episode of The Science of Success is presented by Dr. Aziz Gazipura's Confidence University!

You can learn to confidently connect with others, be bold, feel proud of who you are, and create the life you truly deserve!

What Would Your Life Look Like If You Have Double The Confidence?

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:04.4] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Science of Success. Introducing your host, Matt Bodnar.

[00:00:11] MB: Welcome to the Science of Success, the number one evidence-based growth podcast on the internet with more than 3 million downloads, listeners in over a hundred countries.

In this episode, we discuss how to train yourself to think and act like a spy with lessons from a real-world expert. In the game of Spycraft, the stakes couldn’t be higher and one mistake may land you dead or in a foreign prison. In that deadly crucible, only the best ideas survive. We crack open the secrets you can use to influence, develop relationships and create a bridge with anyone you meet with the diehard rules from the world’s top secret agents, with our guest, Jason R. Hanson.

I’m going to tell you why you’ve been missing out on some incredibly cool stuff if you haven’t signed up for our email list yet. All you have to do to sign up is to go to successpodcast.com and sign up right on the home page.

On top of tons subscriber-only content, exclusive access and live Q&As with previous guests, monthly giveaways and much more, I also created an epic free video course just for you. It's called How to Create Time for What Matters Most Even When You're Really Busy. E-mail subscribers have been raving about this guide.

You can get all of that and much more by going to successpodcast.com and signing up right on the homepage, or by texting the word smarter to the number44-222on your phone. If you like what I do on Science of Success, my e-mail list is the number one way to engage with me and go deeper on what I discuss on the show, including free guides, actionable takeaways, exclusive content and much, much more.

Sign up for my e-mail list today by going to successpodcast.com and signing up right on the home page, or if you're on the go, if you're on your phone right now, it's even easier. Just text the word “smarter”, that's S-M-A-R-T-E-R to the number44-222.I can't wait to show you all the exciting things you'll get when you sign up and join thee-mail list.

In our previous episode, we discussed information overload. How do you deal with a world where there’s a constant and overwhelming stream of noise? How do you filter and decide what to pay attention to? How can you determine what’s actually worth your precious time and attention? What should you do with information that you disagree with in a world filled with more and more and more information? Our previous interview with Dr. Thomas Hills explores the solution that may help you finally deal with information overload. If you want to finally stop being overwhelmed by all of the information and noise in your life, listen to our previous episode.

Now, for our interview with Jason.

[00:03:19] MB: Today, we have another exciting guest on the show, Jason R. Hanson. Jason is a former CIA officer, New York Times bestselling author and serial entrepreneur. He’s the founder and CEO of the survival company, Spy Escape Innovation, which has been featured on the 5th season of Shark Tank where he landed a deal with Daymond John. He’s also the author of Spy Secrets That Can Save Your Life, Surviving Like a Spy and Agent of Influence: How do you Spy Skills to Persuade Anyone, Sell Anything and Build a Successful Business.

Jason, welcome to the Science of Success.

[00:03:51] JH: Hey, thank you for having me.

[00:03:52] MB: Well, we’re super excited to have you on today. I always love getting insights and ideas from the fields of espionage and government agencies. I feel like there are so many ideas that are kind of battle tested that I find really, really interesting. Funnily enough, I haven’t done it for a longtime. For me, it’s kind of been a bucket list item that I’ve always wanted to do like an escape innovation course. It sounds so cool, and that’s something I want to check off the list at some point for myself.

[00:04:17] JH: Well, yeah. You got to come out there. We got 320 acres where we do our training. So you’re more than welcome.

[00:04:22] MB: That’s awesome. Well, you’ll definitely be the guy to hit up when I do that. But I want to talk today. I mean, there are so many cool themes and ideas. I really enjoyed some of the topics in Agent of Influence. I just want to begin with some of the themes you talked about early on, which as you call it, is this notion, the confidence reflex. Tell me a little bit about that and what that means and why it’s so important.

[00:04:42] JH: Sure. So, to be successful in life, and obviously be success as a CIA operative, you got to have massive confidence. You’re going out there, you’re trying to recruit somebody to spy for the United States, and if you screw up, if you don’t do it right, you can end up dead or end up in a foreign prison. So, you got to have a ton of confidence to know you can accomplish the job, but at the same time, you got to be teachable. So, you can’t be an arrogant jerk walking around. You’ve got to know that, “Hey, I can do this,” but also be willing to listen to others, learn from others and so on.

[00:05:13] MB: Great insight, and there are so many different lessons that I took even just from the first chapter. I mean, one of them that I thought was great, which we talk about all the time in the show and I think is a really huge differentiator between people that succeed and people that ultimately don’t, is the power of resourcefulness. Tell me a little bit about that and why it’s so important as a spy, but also how we can translate that to everyday life.

[00:05:34] JH: Sure. Well, as a spy, I mean, you’re put out there on your own to accomplish a task. It’s not like the military where you got a platoon backing you up and there’re a gazillion people with you. A lot of times you’re out on the street by yourself and you got to figure it out. So if you’re not resourceful, you’re not going to last very long as a spy.

Now, in the same thing, now that I’m a business owner, nothing changes except of course it’s not life and death and anymore, but so many things pop up in business world, so many things pop up in life. If you can’t figure it out, you are going to drown and not last long. So, when I’m hiring people these days, if I can tell they’re not resourceful, there’s absolutely no way they’re going to work for me, because that is a key trade of success.

[00:05:34] MB: How do you cultivate resourcefulness?

[00:06:14] JH: It’s kind of a baptism by fire thing. Meaning, a lot of times if I’m working with someone, if I think, “Hey, I may hire this person.” I’ll give them a task and basically throw them to the wolves and see if they can figure it out.

So, it’s kind of like in the government, you have training exercises and they throw you to the wolves to see if you’re going to pass these training exercises before they put you on the streets for real. So, if I say to a potential employee, “Hey, go find me X, Y or Z by 12:00 today,” and X, Y or Z is something very difficult to find. I’ve got to see, “Okay. Can they go through all the channels? Are they going to have this in my office in less than four hours?” Where there’s a will, there’s a way. So, if somebody can’t do it, if somebody gives up, well, obviously, they’re not very resourceful.

[00:06:56] MB: That makes total sense. There were a couple other kind of components of resourcefulness that you talked about or even the broader notion of the confidence reflex, which I think are, again, quintessential skills not only for obviously being a successful spy, but really being successful in life. Another one that you mentioned or really two that I think go hand-in-hand tie into this were problem solving and creativity.

[00:07:16] JH: Yeah. Like you just said, it perfectly goes hand-in-hand, because if you’re going to spy on an operation, things aren’t always going to go what they’re supposed to. So you can solve – Can you figure out the problem? Meaning, if you’re supposed to go through a door and it’s locked and your intelligence said that door is going to be unlocked, did you bring the equipment to bust through that door? Do you know all the other doors you may have to get through? Are you creative enough to – Again, my whole book is kind of the – We’re talking about how to sell like a spy, but are you creative enough to go to somebody and convince them to allow you through that door?

So, I keep saying, there’s really no difference, as you mentioned, between a spy in real life. There are certain traits that every successful person has. They just might be applying it to a business or they might be applying it to the intelligence operative world. It’s kind of where we lie.

[00:08:02] MB: One of my favorite quotes from that section of the book was this idea that there’s always a way to win.

[00:08:08] JH: I had a mentor at the CIA, and one of the best intelligent operatives ever. His mantra was one that we all know was basically never give up, never take no, and there’s always a way to figure it out. So, life isn’t always easy, but the old cliché, if you get knocked 99 times, you’re going to get up that 100 time. This guy did some incredible operations and he just shared with me, you went through a one brick wall, then another brick wall, and most people would have given up at day 300, but he was still going at day 600. So, it’s a wonderful lesson that I was fortunate to learn early on.

[00:08:45] MB: Another thing that I thought was seemingly surprising and counterintuitive, but really makes sense that more you think about it was that empathy and emotional intelligence were, as you call them, kind of cornerstones of the ability and the toolkit and the skillset of a spy.

[00:08:59] JH: So, a spy’s job is you’re going over – I’ll just make one up. You’re going over to Russia, and there’s this guy in the Russian government and you’re trying to recruit him to spy for the U.S. So, if you go over there and you said, “Hey, Boris, come and spy for the U.S.”, and it’s obviously a much longer process than that.

But if you don’t have empathy, if you don’t come up as authentic and actually caring about him, he’s going to see right through that, because actually you’re asking someone to betray their country, to commit treason against their country. So, you can’t do it in a fake way, because human beings, no matter if they live in Russia, or China, or the U.S., we’re all the same deep down at the core.

So, empathy is huge, because that asset will tell that you’re fake or a fraud and not being honest with them and you’ll lose that asset. Yeah, empathy is not something that I can say that most man have. I’ll say I’m the first guy to admit that, but you have to cultivate it if you want to be successful.

[00:09:56] MB: Let’s dig in a little bit more. One of my other favorite lines from the book was talking about the process, we’ll get into it in a second, which is the SARD cycle, or the SADR cycle, and I think you used the line that treason was not an easy product to sell, right? Which comes back to what we’re talking about a second ago, but this idea that the skillsets that spies have to develop and that the CIA has developed and other institutions like it, these are skillsets that are truly field tested, battle tested in probably the most brutal, unforgiving proving ground that’s imaginable where the stakes are often either death or/and maybe a best case scenario, imprisonment in a foreign prison, and there’s almost no room for failure.

[00:10:40] JH: That’s why I love it, because everything you just said – So, I am a serial entrepreneur. I have lot of businesses. I also do a lot of coaching and mentoring with other entrepreneurs. People these days, they’re lazy. They don’t do the research. They don’t put in the work. Because my background is CIA, you had to put in the work.

I mean, if you made a mistake, as I mentioned, you could end up dead. Wherein the business world, if you made a mistake or make a mistake, maybe you don’t get the contract. No big deal. But I play to win. So because I have that background, I’m going to put in the effort. You mentioned that I got a deal on Shark Tank, and one of the reasons was I did probably more research on all the sharks than anybody had done before. I read all their books. I watched all their interviews. I watched every episode. I wrote down every question they ever asked. I mean, I knew – It was basically like researching an asset. So I knew the hot buttons. I knew what made them tick. I knew what they like to hear, and most people these days just don’t – They don’t want to put in the effort to achieve that success.

[00:11:38] MB: Such a great point, and the level of focus and dedication that’s necessary. It’s so easy for people to think that they’re doing enough. They think they’re taking enough action. But as we talked about a minute ago, it’s so important to be persistent, to be resourceful, to always be getting every single edge you can possibly have. I love the description you just used of viewing the sharks as assets that you were developing and getting every possible angle to ensure you have the highest probability of closing a deal.

[00:12:04] JH: Well, exactly, because everybody has a hot button. I’ll let you guess. Do you know the main reason that people spy and work for the U.S.? Do you have any idea what it is?

[00:12:13] MB: Their own family? I don’t know. I don’t really know. That’s a guess. Maybe their family’s safety, security, something like that.

[00:12:18] JH: That’s actually a great guess, because most people say money. Most people think that, “Hey, the reason Boris or the guy in China starts working for the U.S. is money,” but that’s not true. When an American commits treason and goes spy for another country, it’s almost always money. But when we’re trying to recruit somebody to help U.S., often time it is children’s education. They want their kids to have a better education and better life than they did, and that’s their hot button.

So, most people don’t do the research to figure out what it is. It’s not always money. I can tell you in certain instances, it’s women. So, I guess we can name it. Japan. A lot of men in Japan have mistresses. I don’t know why. They just do. It’s very common. So, in Japan, they want money for their mistresses. That’s their hot button. So everyone of us, we’re all human. We all have something that is our hot button. If you can figure it out, it will take you very far.

[00:13:06] MB: That’s fascinating. It’s so interesting. I want to dig in to more and explore the framework that I touched on a second ago, this idea of the SARD cycle, or the SADR cycle. I’m not sure how do you say it. But tell me more about that framework, because that is really the guidance structure that you use, that the CIA uses to cultivate these assets and get them to sell them on betraying their countries essentially, and that’s why it’s such a proven framework. But tell me a little bit, what does the acronym stand for and tell me more about the SARD technique.

[00:13:41] JH: Sure. It doesn’t matter what you call it, SADR cycle, SADR cycle. So, when you’re in the intelligence business, you get a requirements, and the requirement maybe, “Hey –” Of course, I’m just making this up, but, “Hey, Russia is developing biological weapons. We need to find a scientist who knows about these biological weapons and who might be able to help the U.S.”

So, the first part of the SADR cycle is spotting, and spotting is simply who has what I need. So, if I’m going over to Russia to try and find a scientist, maybe there are 15 scientists in all of Russia who have access to this biological warfare information. So, I’ve got to spot those 15 guys. I’ve got to figure out who might be a potential to work for the U.S.

So, it’s the same thing anywhere, even when I’m running my own businesses. If I want something, I’ve got to start spotting who has what I want. So, that’s the first part of the SADR cycle. Next is A, which is stand for assessing. You’ve got to assess all the people who might be potentials and figure out who really has what you need. So, if I have 15 scientists in Russia and I go investigate them, maybe I boil it down to five scientists who actually have the level of clearance to access what I need. So, I get rid of the 10. I don’t waste my time with those 10.

Continue on is developing. Developing is the fun part of the SADR cycle, because that’s when you’re wining and dining them. That’s when you’re making them fall in love with you. That’s when you’re trying to make this person your best friend. So, you don’t come out and say, of course, the first time you meet them, “Hey, Boris. My name is John and I work for the CIA. Would you like to spy for us?” It is like when you first meet a woman, and of course you put your best foot forward. You’re trying to make her fall in love with you especially if you think you’re going to marry her. That is the development phase. You’re trying to see, “Is this is a person who will end up or I could see end up spying for the U.S.?” That phase can of course can take months, years. It all depends.

Then, lastly of the SADR cycle is R, which stands for recruiting, and that means you’ve come to the point where you are willing to risk your life and say, “Yes. This scientist, I’ve developed him enough. I know if I pitch him to spy for the U.S., he’s going to say yes.”

The reason I say that intelligence operatives are the world’s best salesmen, is you cannot be wrong when you go to pitch that guy, because if he says no. He may go run and tell his supervisors. Then the next time you meet, you may end up with a bag over your head or in a foreign prison. So, when that day comes, you’ve got to be 100% sure he’s going to say yes, and that’s kind of a whole cycle in a nutshell. But it’s a fun cycle and you can apply it to every area of your life.

[00:16:20] MB: So, I want to dig in first to the notion of spotting, and I want to dig a little bit into each of these buckets. But how do you start with quickly identifying the people, and let’s maybe use an example from or the lessons from the world of spying, but then translate that into everyday life and business. How do you quickly identify the people who can help you succeed in your mission or your goal or your business or whatever your aims are?

[00:16:45] JH: Sure. Fortunately, because the technology these days, both in the intelligence world and in the business world, it’s a lot faster and easier. So, in the intelligence world, you’ll obviously have a lot of analyst. You have a large number of people. I mean, you’ve got the U.S. government budget. So after some research they can say, “Hey, her are the 20 people we think who have what we need.” So you need to start going running down these 20 people and find out if it’s true.

Now, in the business world, let’s just give you a very simple example. Let’s say I want to run Facebook ads, and when I work with people these days, I want to work with the best. So I’ll talk to people, I’ll network, I’ll say, “Tell me who the 10 best Facebook guys in the world are,” and then I’ll get to know each one. I’ll talk to them. I’ll find out what they charge and then I’ll have that guy run Facebook ads. So, these days, a Google search or networking, you can find out whatever you need, “Hey, tell me the best Google guy. Tell me the best PR guy,” and then I narrow them down and see who I want to work with.

[00:17:39] MB: And we may be jumping ahead a little bit, but after you – Let’s say you find, for example, the 10 best Facebook advertisers in the world. How do you actually start approaching and connecting and getting in front of those people?

[00:17:51] JH: Well, a lot of times, because I’m very fortunate to have many contacts and networks, I’ll get a warm introduction, which is exactly what you need. So, in the spy world, warm introduction means if I’m trying to get to a scientist, I don’t want to approach him out of the blue. I’m going to go make friends first with someone who is his friend.

So, let’s say this scientist works out at the gym every day. I’m going to find out who his best friend is at the gym and then I’m going to make friends with him. Lo and behold, one day he’s going to introduce me to the scientist. So, it’s a very drawn out process, but a warm introduction, you’re much more likely to close the deal. So, I’ll try and get a referral. Then I’m very blunt. I’ll ask him questions. Most people don’t ask enough questions, and I do some lie detection training. So I’ll ask him some things to see if they’re legit, because you and I both know there’s a gazillion con artists these days. Everybody claims to be an internet multimillionaire, “I made a million dollars overnight. I launched this product, made $10 million.” So, I’ll ask, “Tell me who you’ve worked with. Show me some case studies.” Then I ask him some questions so I can figure out are they legit or are they a pretender.

[00:18:57] MB: Totally makes sense. I want to get in to some of the lie detection techniques and other things. But before we do, I want to wrap up and better understand the SADR cycle a little bit more. But that makes sense. So, you can essentially manufacture, for lack of a better term, a warm introduction by targeting maybe people adjacent in their network, developing relationship with them and then leveraging that to get the ultimate kind of warm intro.

[00:19:21] JH: Correct. Yeah, because I deal with a lot of celebrities, and certain celebrities are obviously very difficult to get to. But I know enough – It’s the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon kind of thing. I know enough people where I can find somebody who can give me that warm introduction with a celebrity, and it’s the exact same thing as the spy world.

[00:19:38] MB: Totally makes sense. I want to scale down and talk a little bit about assessing, because I thought this was really interesting. When you’re talking about assessing in the book, you mentioned the art of elicitation. I don’t know if I’m saying that correctly. But this idea of there’s a couple kind of key skillsets that you can use when you’re meeting with somebody to quickly develop rapport. Would you tell me a little bit more about this?

[00:19:59] JH: Yeah. So, the art of elicitation is huge. That’s when you’re extracting information from somebody to see if they can actually help you. Does this scientist actually have access to the lab where they’re making these biological weapons? Now, you can’t just come out and ask him. If you’re meeting some guy randomly in a bar, when, by the way, you’re not really meeting him randomly. Of course, you know he’s going to be there, but it looks random. You can’t just ask him, “Hey, Boris. Do you have access to the lab at 123 Main Street? Nope? Okay. Thanks for saving me this time.”

So, you’ve got to be very good at questioning people and for reading people. So, one of my favorite techniques is called the hourglass conversation. The way the hourglass conversation works is that people remember the beginning of a conversation and the end of a conversation, but they hardly remember the middle. Our brains works so fast these days, we’re thinking of what we have to do tomorrow. What’s on our to-do-list and all that?

So, the hourglass conversation, if you meet a stranger, you may ask him general stuff and have the general conversation of, “Hey, how’s the weather here? How the food here?” and talk about their family, just boring stuff. Then in the middle, you may ask, “Oh, yeah! So, what do you do for a living?” and you’ve got to see how they react. If they get real uncomfortable and suspicious, that’s a good sign for you, but you also need to pullback, because you don’t want to make it seem awkward that you’re asking about their job.

Then at the end of the conversation, you can go back to something like, “Hey, are you going to watch the ballgame this Saturday? I’m thinking of going sailing with my family. You know any good places to go fishing?” or whatever it maybe. Because you have gotten what you wanted in the middle. They forget about that uncomfortableness, because you end up with generic stuff. Hourglass conversation is a great way to suck information out of people.

[00:21:39] MB: In the discussion of the hourglass conversation, you also mentioned this idea of a low-key provocative. Tell me a little bit, what is that and how do you use one?

[00:21:46] JH: Yeah. So, there are many different ways. It’s, again, pushing buttons, but not pushing buttons in a creep or weird way. So, I keep going back to, if he’s a scientist, you can’t come out and say, “Show me your keycard that you can get in that door.” But you can kind of nibble at them, poke at them, but that’s where you have to be good at reading people. So, many people in this life unfortunately are oblivious. It’s like – You ever watch a show, The Office?

[00:22:12] MB: Sure.

[00:22:13] JH: All right. I’d say everybody has. So, Michael Scott in The Office is a very lovable character. He’s a hilarious goofball, but he’s oblivious and couldn’t read somebody to save his life. Well, in the spy world, if you’re that guy, you’re not going to last long, because if you start trying to prod or ask about their work – Again, they start to get uncomfortable in the face, which is why you have to watch body language. You know that they’re doing something serious and you need to immediately back off, because if you keep going, they’re going to remember that you prodded about that.

But you can also lay down gems in the same thing as, “Oh, yeah. I’m an American businessman who my company gives me a lot of money and I’m interested in biological warfare.” You obviously wouldn’t say it like that, but you’d say something different. So you can drop things to see how they bite at what you are dropping.

If you mention, “Hey, I’ve got a ton of money and my company takes me per diem to great restaurants. Do they perk up, because they want to go to the great restaurants? Or you drop things like, “Hey, I’ve got a daughter in high school. I’ve got three kids and they’re driving me nuts.” Does he chime in and say, “Oh! I’ve got five kids and I know how it is,” because then you’re gathering intel.

So, I’m kind of veering off here, but one thing you can do is use the give to get, which means you give info to see if they come back at you. So, going back to mentioning your wife, do they mentioned their wife? Then you know their married. Do they mention their kids? You could say something like, “I love sports.” Do they say, “I love sports or hate sports?” I mean, this is all data that you’re gathering on them.

[00:23:48] MB: That totally makes sense. So, in essence, the idea is kind of drop these different little references and see what they key into, what they engage with, and then maybe go deeper down that vein to develop rapport and maybe leave the other potential conversation topics that they didn’t really light up about by the wayside.

[00:24:05] JH: Correct, because there’s the old cliché of salesmen, when they walk into somebody’s office and they see a bow and they’re like, “You like sailing? I like sailing.” Well, the SADR cycle is a less corny version of that, where your mind is moving at 90 miles an hour, because you’re paying attention to everything. Did they uncomfortable when they mention work. Were they happy when they mentioned their wife, or were they uncomfortable? Maybe they have having trouble in their marriage.

When you mentioned money, did his eyes light up, like he really needed money? So you’re filing all those away and then you go home and write a rapport, because you want to know simply what the hot buttons are and what to talk about and what not to talk about.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[00:24:47] MB: Hey, I’m here real quick with confidence expert, Dr. Aziz Gozipura, to share a lightning round insight with you.

Aziz, how can our listeners use science to get more dates with people they really want?

[00:25:01] AG: I love that question, and the answer is the science of confidence. So, whenever we’re struggling, we want a date, we’re afraid to put ourselves out there, we’re worried on some level that we’re going to get a negative response. If you didn’t have that worry, if you knew that this person that you’re going to ask out was going to say yes and be excited to go out with you, we’d all be doing it without hesitation.

So, the thing that stops us is anxiety, is fear, is self-doubt, and that is a confidence issue. So, if we build our confidence, all of a sudden we’ll have way more opportunities to put ourselves out there and to date.

So sometimes we think, “What’s the pickup line? What’s the thing I should say? How do I approach the person? We get so focused on the how, and what we want to do is we want to take a step back and say, “How do I actually change what’s going on inside of me to feel more confident?” There are so many ways you can do that, and I have a course called Confidence University. We have a whole course on dating mastery.

But one major tidbit out of that one is right now you have a story in your mind about why you’re not attractive. Why someone wouldn’t over the moon to go and date with you, and you want to find that story and take out, uproot it. So, right now think about why are you not attractive and how can you change that story to see yourself as someone who’s actually highly desirable. What are your qualities? What do you bring to a date or a relationship that would make someone love spending time with you? If you get more clear on that all of a sudden, a lot of your anxiety and fear are going to evaporate.

[00:26:27] JM: Do you want to be more confident and get more dates? Visit successpodcast.com/confidence. That’s successpodcast.com/confidence to sign up for Confidence University and finally master dating.

[00:26:46] MB: Another theme that I thought was really interesting around the art of elicitation was the inclusion of flattery as a potential technique to influence people. Tell me about flattery and whether or not that’s – Because I think some people might think that’s kind of a cliché methodology or something that’s overused. But how can you actually intelligently include that in conversations?

[00:27:06] JH: Flattery works. I don’t care what anybody tells me. Anybody listening to this right now, I could flatter them to get what I want. I don’t say that in a bad way. It’s just sometimes people tell me it doesn’t work and that’s not true at all.

So, you’ve got to be genuine about it. We talked about empathy early on. People can tell if you’re being authentic or you’re being fake. So, you’ve got to do it in a sincere way. I’ll give you an example, and this is a “hypothetical example”. If you’re a spy overseas and you’re casing something, maybe you’re casing a building and you just happened to get stopped by police, which is not good, and the police say, “What are you doing? Show me your passport,” of whatever. You smile and you look at them and you say, “Man! This city is beautiful. I love the architecture. I was just looking around, admiring the architecture, and I love it.” That’s flattery, because everybody wants to hear that you love their city. You love where they live. You love where they work. So, then the police lets you go. Then they say, “Okay. You’re fine,” and hand you back your passport.

The same thing works with trying to get, again, work with somebody. Like, “Hey, John. I love your book. Your book is fantastic. I love the interview about it,” or “I love this show you’re on.” So, if you’re coming off as genuine, it’s going to get you very far in life.

My wife jokes that I’m very susceptible to it, because I’ll get emails where people are like, “Jason, I love this training I took. It was incredible.” I’m like, “You know what? That is a smart person, honey.” She always laughs and says, “Yeah, you’re so susceptible to flattery.” So, we all are.

[00:28:33] MB: Yeah. I thought that was really interesting. Again, coming back to one of the core themes of this conversation, this notion that these ideas are field tested, battle tested, proven and it seems cliché, it seems almost goofy to say, “Oh, you should flatter somebody if you’re trying to influence them.” But in the real world, the highest possible stakes with life and death on the line, this is a technique and a strategy that’s truly effective.

[00:28:54] JH: You’re 100% correct. The problem is when you’re out on the streets as a spy, you do it in the right way. Meaning, you come off authentic. You don’t overdo it. You don’t make it seem cheesy and it’s done very finely. In the real world, because it’s not life or death, people – They don’t take it seriously enough. So they don’t hone their craft so to say when they’re trying to sell. When they flatter, it looks like they’re a robot and it looks like they’re not being genuine. So, if people hone their craft in that way, they would see how valuable it is.

[00:29:25] MB: What are some of the ways that you would recommend an average person non-spy work to kind of hone that craft of influence?

[00:29:33] JH: Well, since it keeps coming back to being authentic, find something you really look about the target or the person you’re going after. So, if you want to go after somebody to work with them to do a joint venture, partner, or whatever it is, buy all their stuff. Research all their stuff. If you find a product or a book or whatever you really love, then you can write them a note and say, “Hey, John. On page 671 or your book, I loved how you wrote this paragraph, or I love what I learned from it.”

So maybe you have to dig a little to find something you’re going to be 100% genuine about, but it’s there. If you can’t find something, you probably shouldn’t work with this person if you really don’t like what they’re doing. So, that’s all it is. Complimenting your wife or your husband or your kids – I mean, even if your spouse or whoever drive you nuts, I’m sure there’s something you love about them because you married them in the first place. So, find that thing and start complimenting. That way, it comes across as you’re being 100% serious and you actually care about them.

[00:30:31] MB: I want to segue into some of the other strategies that you had for developing relationships with assets. Is asset the right term? I think that’s the term that sort of the CIA uses, that you want to – People that you want to build relationships with.

In the next chapter, we’re talking about developing. You had a couple of great strategies. I think you call them diehard rules for creating a bridge with somebody, and these are things like don’t interrupt them when they’re talking. Never change the subject. Don’t give advice unless you’re asked for it, etc. Tell me a little bit more about why you recommend some of those strategies and techniques and why they work.

[00:31:05] JH: Well, we all know that we talk too much, and then we should shut up and listen. But we live in such a self-absorbed world that nobody does it. So, I have – I mean, obviously we’re doing an interview, so I’m telling you all these stuff and talking about myself. In real life though, I know everything myself. I don’t need to hear myself talk. So, if I’m going out and meeting with someone, I don’t say anything unless they ask me a question. I just listen and let them talk, because most people want to talk. That is the forgotten art, because you gain so much information by just being quiet.

That’s why I said you’ve got to have a massive ego to do this business, but you’ve also got to be able to swallow it and not care. Not need anybody’s approval. Not need anybody to pat you on the back. So, be quiet more and just listen and don’t volunteer any information about yourself unless they ask it.

Another huge thing is the law of reciprocity. It is used so much in the spy world. All that means is if you’re trying to recruit somebody, you may take them to fancy restaurant and you buy them a $2,000 a meal. You may buy them a new suit. You buy them all these stuff so they feel indebted to you. That way, when the day comes to pitch them, they’re like, “Man! I kind of owe this guy. He bought me all these dinners. He bought me all these clothes.”

So, the law of reciprocity is great. I’ll give you a real life example right now of how the law of reciprocity was recently used against me by my sister-in-law. So, I hate Disney World. I hate that place. I have zero desire to go, and I never ever want to go or take my kids. Well, my sister-in-law who lives in Florida surprised our family, bought everybody plane tickets, bought everybody passes to Disney, except me, because I told her I wouldn’t go.

So, my wife was like, “Hey! She paid for our entire flight. She bought us all these tickets. She got us our hotel. Isn’t this nice? We can’t turn it down.” So, that was a great way of law of reciprocity to get me and my family all the way over to Florida to visit our sister-in-law. Now, for the record, as I said, I did not go to Disney World, because I will not go into that place. But I still ended up outside the gates, because the law of reciprocity was used against me.

[00:33:13] MB: That’s great. It’s funny. I have the same philosophy in any conversation, and I think even really influences my interviewing style to some degree. In any conversation, I think this is especially true in things like business negotiations or any difficult tough conversation. The less talking that I can do, the better. Because as you said, when you’re talking, you’re not gaining information. As long as I’m silent, I can be learning. I can be reading somebody. I can be looking at their – What’s their body language doing? What are the words they’re using? How are they reacting to what’s happening in the conversation? Plus, the actual content of what they’re talking about. But as soon as I start talking, I lose the opportunity to do all of those things.

[00:33:52] JH: Most people can’t do it these days. That’s why it’s so beneficial for you and me, for people who actually do it, because everybody wants to run their mouth all the time. I’m actually introvert by nature. I really don’t like to talk. I mean, unless it’s required by the job, I can go out there and I can sell. I can do whatever needed. But in real life, I don’t like talking. I don’t like listening. We’ll be at a party, my wife will have some friend, have a party. We’ll go there, and I’ll just listen to people all night long and I don’t say a word about myself. Then somebody will – My wife will tell somebody I used to work at the CIA and what I do and they’re like, “Oh my gosh! How come you didn’t tell us? We want to ask you all these questions.” Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. I didn’t tell them, because, again, I already know that about me. I want to learn about other people and read them. I don’t want to talk unless there’s a purpose or I’ve been asked a question.

[00:34:39] MB: Totally makes sense. You’re right. In today’s world, it’s absolutely a strategic advantage if you can spend more of your time listening than talking. Yet, so few people take advantage of that.

[00:34:51] JH: Well, I mean, it’s not only that too, but it’s also the research to do ahead of time. So, I mentioned Shark Tank, how much resource I did. Obviously, when you’re going to recruit an asset or find somebody, you know them better than they know yourself. So, if you’re going in to a meeting, what do you really know about this guy? Google searches, their LinkedIn page, Facebook, all that you can find out. But have you read articles they’ve written? Have you done whitepapers they’ve written? Because there could be this one line, and I literally had this in my life. One paragraph that I found after researching someone, which changed everything. Now, that one paragraph was of course buried, but I spent hours and hours and hours and hours, and that made all the difference. Most people don’t do that kind of deep, deep research, which is critical.

[00:35:34] MB: Yeah, that’s another great point and underscored by the Shark Task story, everything else, that you have to spend your time really cultivating every possible competitive advantage you can get and doing the homework ahead of time. It’s a huge asset. When you have a big meeting on the line, when you have a really important person that you’re meeting with, doing that homework helps you ensure that you have every possible angle, every possible avenue of attack open to you so that you can achieve the goal you want to achieve from that meeting.

[00:36:00] JH: Just to give you an example. I’ll give you fictitious example. If you’re trying to recruit an asset or find somebody, you would want to know what kind of cigars do they smoke. If they’re the type that are having affairs, what kind of women do they like? Is it a Cuban woman? Is it a Chinese woman? Is it American? You want to know everything about them. What kind of scotch do they drink?

I had a buddy who did some very good work because he knew the exact scotch that someone needed, and that’s how he’s able to initially cultivate the relationship. That’s the benefit of people who are willing to hard, is that everybody thinks spying is like a James Bond movie. You’re jumping out of helicopters and shooting guns. But, of course, that’s not true. 99% of the work is hard, hard laid work, and then 1% is hold on for the ride kind of thing. It’s the 99%, which leads to the 1%.

[00:36:44] MB: So, let’s keep talking about the SADR cycle. I want to touch on recruiting a little bit. What are some of the key strategy? We’ve talked a lot of the building blocks of this already. But kind of wrapping a bow on it, what are the key building blocks or strategies for once you’ve developed this relationship, build with a bridge somebody, cultivated rapport and empathy. How do you then go about recruiting them?

[00:37:07] JH: So, yeah. There’s a few different ways, but recruiting is – Again, you’re not going to do it, unless you’re 100% know you’re going to close the deal. So, you could picture it as a business lunch. You’re going out with this guy. You’ve developed them. Okay, are you ready to close the deal and pitch him at the business lunch? If you’re not 100% sure the deal is going to close and that is right, well, wait. Don’t do it.

So, recruiting, once you have developed that guy, once you’re 99.999% sure that he is willing to spy for the U.S., it’s actually – There’re a few ways to do it. But one of them is very simple. It’s everybody wants to be a spy. So, you basically say to them like, “Hey, John. You’re a smart guy. You may have guessed by now that I’m really not an American businessman who works for X, Y, Z corporation. I’m actually a spy and I was wondering if you want to be a spy too. It would be awesome. Both of us could be spies. What do you think?”

Now, you may think that sounds corny, but that works. Now, you have to know obviously your target, to see if it’s going to work. But that exactly line [inaudible 00:38:08]. I would imagine that exactly line has recruited people to work for the U.S. So, that’s one way to do it, is just, “Hey, we’ll both be spies, and who doesn’t want to be a spy?”

The other way is to do the money. If you think it’s money, if that’s what you find out. So, “Hey, John. In this white envelope, I’ve got $3,000,” and you go back to the, “Hey, you probably figured out by now.” Because these guys are smart enough that they figured out something’s not right. Meaning, you’re asking for things that you’re probably not an American businessman. So, you say, “Hey, I’ve got this $5,000 in a white envelope. I can give this to you if you want to give me a little more information. By the way, you probably have guess. My employer is not John Doe Corporation. My employer is the U.S. government. How would you like this five grand?”

Many countries of course around the world are extremely poor, and $5,000 – I mean, it’s a lot of money for us. But a real lot of money for them, and they’re happy to oblige and get on the U.S. government’s payroll.

[00:39:09] MB: I like the way that you catch that phrase; I would imagine that it might work. That’s good. Got to cross those t’s, right?

[00:39:14] JH: That’s exactly right.

[00:39:16] MB: That totally makes sense. Again, I think it underscores a lot of the themes we’ve talked about. I want to touch on another element of the SADR cycle, which is the T at the end of it. It’s kind of the additional piece, which is how do you terminate or transfer a relationship ultimately?

[00:39:32] JH: So, yeah. If you’ve developed an asset, if you recruit an asset, the day may come where they’re not worth it. Maybe you recruited a Russian who is working at a certain office building. Maybe he retires from that job, or maybe he gets transferred to another location where he doesn’t access to what you need. So, the day – Somebody is not going to spy for you forever. The day is going to come where you need to transfer him or terminate him.

Now, terminate is not kill them. So, it’s not like some Hollywood movie where the guy is no longer use to you, you got to put a bullet in his head. That’s now how it works. You’ve got to gently let him down and basically say, “Hey, here’s one last payment. You’ve been wonderful, but you don’t have access to this information anymore,” and you do it with kid gloves. You’ve got to be very, very careful. But then you basically just say, “We’re done. We’re no longer working together, and let’s remain friends for life,” or something like that. So, that’s just terminating.

Transferring is maybe the intelligence operative and, of course, I’m just making up countries. Maybe there’s an intelligence operative living in France, and that’s where he’s running this asset and he gets transferred back to headquarters in Virginia. Well, he needs to transfer that asset in France to a new person who’s going to be the handler in France, and that also has to be a kid glove type of thing. Because, you’ve built this relationship. They’re in love with you. You can’t just hand them off to somebody else that will make them nervous. So, you’ve got to have a very delicate process. Obviously, “This is Mike. He’s going to be taking over for me. He’s great. You guys hang out.” You build that relationship. They’re all comfortable. Then you head out of the country. Now, Mike handles the new asset in France.

[00:41:04] MB: So, it’s really important to be delicate. To, as you’ve put it, sort of have kid gloves. What are some tactics or strategies to enable yourself to do that?

[00:41:14] JH: Well, you’ve got to know your asset, of course, back and forth. So, let’s say you’re going to terminate. Is this person going to go nutso, like a psycho X-girlfriend and cause problems? Well, then, you’re going to have to terminate or have somebody else terminate and get on a plane and get yourself out of the country, because they’re going to blow your cover.

Now, if they’re a good, normal, decent human being, then you can terminate and they’ll understand. Of course, you give them some money as a thank you parting gift. So, it all depends on what is the reaction going to be. If you think they’re going to run back and tell their boss that, “Hey, there’s an American spy here in France.” You can’t stay in the country kind of thing.

So, it’s all case-by-case, and it all goes back to the foundation of everything we talked here is knowing everything about the person you’re going after. Being able to read their body language, knowing how they react, knowing their likes, dislikes. Yeah, that’s what keeps you safe in the long run.

[00:42:08] MB: It comes back to that idea of doing that homework, figuring out not only beforehand, but also through the meetings and relationships, etc. Really, what makes this person tick? How do they think? How are they going to react? Because that ultimately – Correct me if I’m misstating this, but shapes and impacts the way you communicate with him and the plan you ultimately have to whether it’s terminate or transfer that relationship.

[00:42:30] JH: Right. I mean, I’ll give you another quick example, and I believe I put it in this new book, was I had a billionaire one time hire me, because I do a lot of private security consulting, private security work with high net worth individuals. This billionaire ended up hiring me, but the way I got hired was he actually didn’t care about his security. He was not that interested. I mean, he had death threats, but he didn’t take it that seriously. It was his girlfriend that was really worried about the security and the reason that I got in there.

So, had I gone and talk to this billionaire and pitched him, he could care less, because he was not worried about his security. But the girlfriend was the decision maker, because she was the one who was able to influence him and said, “Yes, you need to bring this person in, because I didn’t want you to get abducted. I don’t want you to get shot.” So, know also who can make those ultimate decisions.

[00:43:17] MB: That totally makes sense, and that’s a good example. I want to – With the time we have left, I want to touch on a couple of other themes and ideas from the book, because there are so many – We’ve talked a lot about the communication components, which I think is a core piece of it. But there are so many other ideas that are really important, really relevant from the book. Tell me about one of the core themes of the second half of the book, is this notion that spy skills are essentially, as you call them, enhanced common sense. Tell me about that. What does that mean and how can we as non-spies leverage some of those lessons so that we can enhance our own common sense to be more effective, productive and better at influencing people?

[00:43:54] JH: Yeah. Another one of my mentors at CIA, he had a saying, was that spying is simply common sense on steroids. That’s truly what it is. I mean, you think about all the stuff. Like I’ll give you an example. One of my pet peeves is being on time. If I have somebody what wants to meet with and pitch me a deal, because I get a lot of deals pitch to me these days. If you show up five minutes late and there’s not like a real reason, meaning an emergency, or something crazy. I immediately am not closing that deal with you.

So, common sense of, “Hey. If you think there’s going to be traffic, maybe you should leave 30 minutes ahead instead of 15 minutes ahead. Be on time with your meetings.” In real spy world, you’re never going to be late to a meeting. So why would you be late to a meeting on a business deal you’re trying to close?

Same thing, grooming. If you show up in jeans and a t-shirt and it’s not an appropriate venue to be in a jeans and a t-shirt. Well, clearly not a good thing. So, there’re all these little details, which to me they’re common sense. But I’ve seen people show up to meetings where a suit and tie was required and they were in jeans and a t-shirt. It’s just like, “What is wrong with you?” kind of thing. So, there’re all these little things that we already know. But a lot of it goes back to laziness and not putting your best foot forward.

[00:45:05] MB: Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense, and those are both very concrete, specific, but simple examples as well of just understanding – This comes back to the importance of doing your homework, but understanding the context of the meeting that you’re having. Is it appropriate?

One of the things that I think about, and tell me if you apply this principle from the spying world as well, but is almost from a mirroring standpoint, like what is the person I’m meeting with going to be wearing and how can I mirror my outfit as best possible to match sort of the style or the aesthetic? Whether it’s super informal, or super formal, that they’re going to be bringing to the table so that we can be similarly dressed.

[00:45:47] JH: Yeah. In the book I talk about mirroring. Mirroring is huge and it’s crucial. Obviously, you don’t want to be over the top, meaning as soon as he fold his arms, I fold my arms. You don’t want to make it obvious and stupid like that. But what you just said, it’s perfect. Because, I mentioned, you’ve got to be dressed appropriately. If you’re going to meet a bunch of surfers who are going to be in pair of sweatpants, they’re going to be in a bathing suit and a towel. Don’t show up in your three-piece suit on the beach. You will not blend in. You’ll look weird kind of thing and you’ll kind of make them feel awkward.

Yeah, know who your client is. Know who your customer is try – As you said, mirror them. Stay similar. That way you’re both on the same comfort level. Because if you’re trying to close a deal, same as recruit somebody, if you’re immediately uncomfortable because you’re like, “Why is he wearing a $10,000 suit and I’m in my sandals and shorts?” That sets the meeting off to a bad start and you clearly don’t want to do that.

[00:46:40] MB: All of these, we’ve talked at length about the notion of doing your homework for pairing, spending that time and energy on the frontend. Really ensuring that whatever you’re doing, whether it’s a sales conversation, whether you’re trying to influence someone, whether you’re trying to grow your business, etc., that you do the homework ahead of time, that you prepare. That was one of the other core principles that you had in the second section of the book around enhanced common sense, was this notion of – As you called it, extreme preparation.

[00:47:05] JH: I will give you a perfect example. So, I have never sent a text message in my life. I do not text, whatsoever. I talk about it often. So, if you read previous books I’ve written, if you read online articles, I’ve talked about numerous times that I don’t text. So, it wouldn’t be that hard to find.

But every now and then, because I’m getting so many deals pitched at me, I will have somebody text me who got my phone number from a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing and I don’t respond, because they clearly did not do that much homework if they’re texting me trying to work with me, because I don’t text.

Yeah, extreme preparation is the difference between A players and people who are not going to be that successful, and it’s the same thing. You got to prepare and then you got to rehearse. So, if you’re doing extreme preparation for a meeting or me, when I went on Shark Tank, I prepared and I rehearsed. I rehearsed my pitch thousands of times, literally.

If you’re going to a meeting at dinner, rehearse. What are you going to say? Of course, you can’t sound a robot, but you’ve got to know exactly what you’re going to do, what you’re going to say and rehearse it over and over again. It takes work. I mean, there’s a reason not everybody is a millionaire or multimillionaire, because it takes a lot of work, and most people don’t want to put the effort in.

[00:48:15] MB: Another theme that I thought was great and seemed a little bit, again, almost counterintuitive when you think about spies, was this notion of always being really, really teachable.

[00:48:27] JH: Yes. So, the world changes quickly. Things always pop up, new technologies, new threats. So, if you’re not always studying and learning, then you’re going to be left behind very quickly. So, I’m fortunate to have many wonderful buddies in the CIA. We all have different skillsets. I’m fortunate to have many wonderful business associates who are very, very wealthy, much more wealthy than I am.

So, I’m always willing to learn from anybody and everybody. I can tell very quickly if what you’re saying is true or not. So I know if this is good material to use or not material. But I think whatever the old saying is, if you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room. That is something I definitely live by.

[00:49:09] MB: So, for listeners who want to concretely implement some of the themes and ideas that we’ve talked about today on the show, what would be one action item or kind of concrete step that you would give them to start implementing some of these ideas into their lives?

[00:49:23] JH: I get up at 4:30 every morning, and I have a to-do-list that I prepared the night before, and it’s one I’ve created and one I print off every night and fill out. That way I know exactly what I’m doing. So, I would say get up early. Obviously, most people don’t want to get up at 4:30. But find a time that works for you and is comfortable for you. Then make sure you know what your goals are and you’re going towards them every day.

So, I know every day that – I have lots of products in the works, and I know that every day I need to be working on one of my products. So there are certain things, if you have a goal, whatever it may be, that you have to take small baby steps every day to eventually reach that goal, whether it’s six months, a year, 5 years. So, have that to-do-list. Wake up early, and make sure you’re not spending hours on Facebook or texting and that you’re taking those baby steps to accomplish parts of your goal every single day.

[00:50:12] MB: For listeners who want to learn more about you, find this book and previous books, what’s the best place to find you and your work online?

[00:50:20] JH: So, they can get my new book, Agent of Influence at Amazon or any major book seller. Other than that, if they go to the website, celebritymethod.com, that’s just more information about me and some stuff they can use.

[00:50:30] MB: Well, Jason. Thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing all these insights. Some really great, truly sort of war stories from the field and fascinating examples and strategies. It’s been great to have you on the show.

[00:50:41] JH: Hey, thank you. It was my pleasure

[00:50:43] MB: Thank you so much for listening to the Science of Success. We created this show to help you, our listeners, master evidence-based growth. I love hearing from listeners. If you want to reach out, share your story, or just say hi, shoot me an e-mail. My e-mail is matt@successpodcast.com. That’s M-A-T-T@successpodcast.com. I’d love to hear from you and I read and respond to every single listener e-mail.

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